The Great Ebay Debate
Three years ago, in the previous iteration of Jazz Collector, we had a heated discussion about the pros and cons of eBay, spurred by a letter from the Blue Note expert Larry Cohn. I’ve been updating the site with a lot of the old material and posting it with the original dates. This one, however, I thought was worth reprising as a current entry, since the blog format of posting comments is just perfect for this type of discussion. Please take a look, starting with Larry’s original letter, read the comments, and then feel free to post comments of your own.
“Hello Al, from Larry Cohn in NYC. Like you I have been collecting jazz LPs for decades and was surprised by the major rise in prices beginning in the 1980s, largely spurred by Japanese collectors. However, I don’t think we can take as seriously the recent eBay phenomenon.
You quote assidiously the latest realized prices for eBay auctions, but please bear in mind that in most cases the fight between two or three naive collectors is the reason for the result. This is proven out by your noticing that the same LP, sometimes even in better shape, will go for a significantly lower price in the next (or next after that) eBay auction, simply because one or more of the participants in the prior dogfight has already been satisfied and is no longer bidding.
The current eBay group of buyers is not reflective of the general population and it would be foolhardy to either appraise or even just assume that one’s collection was ‘worth’ these sometimes-astronomical figures. This explains the recent price for Song For My Father, which surprised you at north of $300, for a record that I assure you over the years has sold in the $75-or-less range because, like The Sidewinder, it was a hit and had many pressings in both mono and stereo. Even The Sidewinder gets high prices on eBay that are clearly artificial.
“Basically, not ALL copies of these hits were played and played and trashed — significant quantities still exist in great shape after 40 years, given the tens of thousands of originals pressed and sold or distributed to deejays/writers and others on the comp list (who often tucked a copy away unplayed/untouched. My point is simply this — just because an LP sells for a huge price perhaps once or twice is just meaningless.
In the case of all of these albums, including the rare $1,000-plus Jackie McLeans that keep popping up, there are significant, though perhaps no more than 200 or so, copies of each out there in collections around the world in near mint or even “mint” (unplayed) condition. There have to be at least 100 serious Japanese collectors alone (add to this the many Europeans), who long ago filled these blank spaces with near mint copies.
The fact that newer and younger collectors using the current eBay technology are so antsy that they will pay upwards of triple to five times the value of a needed LP does not reflect the general market or population. Most collectors, and I include you and myself, were content to build our collections gradually over a period of years and not go nuts to have the immediate gratification of obtaining a mint rare LP overnight. I have found that “the hunt” is truly satisfying, both psychologically and obviously from a pocketbook standpoint. Of course, the hundreds of near mint/mint copies per title I am referring to are currently tightly “locked up” in collections.
But my point is this: If astronomical prices alone were enough to “unlock” all these goodies, then around 1983 virtually all the albums would have been dumped by their original owners, since the Japanese dealers and collectors were paying upwards of $500 to $2,000 for many titles which previously sold routinely in the $20-$40 range. This dwarfs the recent eBay price increases by a factor of ten. Yet copies, no many, but some in dribs and drabs, the majority of the desirable titles continue to pop up — the supply was not exhausted in 1983 before the Japanese economic downturn curtailed some of this nonsense for awhile. AND, those hundreds of copies per title hoarded away by Japanese collectors in the 1980s obviously still exist and perhaps someday will be made available as those same collectors age and tire of the hobby.”
My original response to Larry:
Hi Larry. Thanks for the thoughtful letter. I’ll put it in the next newsletter. It’ll be interesting to see what kind of response it generates. Personally, I’m not sure how much I agree with you. eBay is certainly here to stay and it’s an incredible market-making phenomenon that opens up the worldwide market in a way that has never been available before. To me the real test is what will happen as collectors such as you and I age and decide to sell our collections (or scale them back): Will there be a younger generation that’s still into vinyl or is this a hobby that diminishes as our generation diminishes? — Al
Larry’s response to me:
Hello, Al. Beyond hip-hop and the various DJs around town playing lounge music, I see more and more youngsters when I visit vinyl record stores — although whether they will ‘graduate’ to jazz is problematic. I know that when I was young I was interested in jazz due to my father’s influence — he was a big fan with a collection of 78s. I graduated into full-scale jazz interest after initially being seized by rock. This pattern is likely to continue in the future, and hopefully women will join the ranks — I see many women at record shows, whereas when I was a young collector there were zero female jazz collectors.
I still believe it is easy to show that eBay is (so far) an aberration. There is a collector I know of only second hand who paid over $5,000 recently for Jutta Hipp Blue Note 1530 (with Zoot), which is the highest price ever paid for a jazz record that I know of (and well over double what any Tokyo store would sell a near mint copy of 1530 for today) and he also paid $2,300 for Candy, Blue Note 1590, recently, which is the highest I’ve ever seen for that Lee Morgan LP. This guy is strictly a nut as far as I’m concerned. His habits don’t reflect anything.
If you annotated your realized prices on eBay in Jazz Collector with the monikers of the winner and runner-up in each auction I would suspect you would find a pattern — a community of ‘overpayers.’ There is an underlying real market out there, and though eBay facilitates the connection between buyers and sellers, I still have no hard evidence it is being used by the most serious collectors and even world-class dealers. The latter, I am certain, still have favored customers for whom they search for rare records and provide them on a strictly private basis. That is how I obtained most of my best LPs — from classic dealers of yore like Leon Leavitt, Lenny Dayton, Red Carraro, Jack Brown, etc., perhaps a vanishing breed (literally in the case of Leavitt & Dayton).
Your newsletter is certainly interesting, but I must point out to you that from an editorial standpoint you are not critical at all. This is a shortcoming that I would hope you address — don’t be afraid of offending. Serious collectors know and are wary of “sharp” dealers, and the very fact that such dealers do so well on eBay proves to me that they are preying on less knowledgeable collectors.
Everyone else (and I have compared notes with dozens of collectors) stays far away from these guys. I daresay, that most advanced jazz collectors, yourself included, in America, Europe and Japan (and Australia, etc., for that matter) already have completed the lion’s share of their jazz collections and are not involved in the day-to-day, silly infighting of eBay. To paraphrase Mr. T: “I pity the fool trying to amass a serious jazz collection from scratch today.”
This is Al again. Following that exchange between Larry and me, there was a flurry of comments from other readers, which I’ll post as separate comments momentarily. Just a couple of footnotes, however. Larry mentions the record dealer Jack Brown, who has also since passed away. Larry also took a shot at one of the prominent dealers on eBay, but I edited that out since he did have a personal grudge against them and it’s also several years later — perhaps they have redeemed themselves. Also note that he mentions the newsletter, which I haven’t been doing for a while, although I may resurrect it as the Web site continues attracting more readers.
This is a comment originally posted by R. Mueller:
“Yes, eBay is an interesting phenomenon when it comes to jazz records. I would suggest that from an economist’s perspective, the prices paid on eBay are almost by definition quite rational since a free, unconstrained market always pays a market price. Yes, prices may well be above the prices that some people who have completed their jazz collections have paid, but these people are very few in number and their prices are completely irrelevant to the new marketplace.
Classic economics theory teaches us that price is set by the interaction of supply and demand: The higher the demand, the higher the price: Similarly, the lower the supply, the higher the price.
So what has been happening with jazz records as a result of eBay? To understand this we need to think about the prior model of selling records through local “bricks and mortar” record stores. These stores were difficult to seek out and only existed in a limited number of urban centers. The cost of buying from them in terms of transportation cost, travel time and the risk they would not have the product you want is extremely high. I live 100 miles from Fred Cohen’s Jazz Record Centre in New York. I visit it whenever I am in the city. But to pay $100 for a New York USA label, Jimmy Smith jazz LP on eBay, which I might be able to buy from Fred for $75, is a no brainer when one considers the above mentioned costs and risks.
The fact is that eBay has opened up the market to a huge number of potential buyers for whom the costs associated with finding records, traveling to get them and being certain they were there was enormously expensive before eBay. So, demand is greatly increased while supply continues to dwindle.
I do not dispute that a few people have paid “irrational” prices even by the classical economic model. Just as one day’s temperature says nothing about climate trends towards global warming, one person’s purchase, for whatever personal reasons, is not indicative of the overall pricing trends in the market. As a relatively new jazz collector, I continue to be enthusiastic about the availability of rare records on eBay. If you were able to buy them at some earlier time at a lower price, good for you: I bought Microsoft stock at a low price instead.”
This is a comment originally posted by Kerry Bradley:
“I think Larry’s got some solid points. Larry’s been great about answering my questions and educating me about the arcana of Blue Notes, so I listen closely when he speaks. A counterpoint would be that, while those serious collectors have filled the gaps in their collections, that also implies that those discs are not on the market and are thus not available. So the eBay price is still, well, the going rate. Of course, I haven’t ever deal with a professional dealer one-on-one . . . maybe I should?
One thought I’d like to add about eBay: Dealers have moved most of their quality stuff to eBay to court the bigger bucks paid by the worldwide market and these ‘in-fighters.’ This development sucks for us rational collectors, who don’t mind paying reasonable prices for excellent records (when I say ‘reasonable’ I include prices that I’m still not ashamed to tell my wife).
I live in the Los Angeles area, and recent visits to the Pasadena City College Swap Meet and Atomic Records have shown that the dealers don’t even bring out their stock of nicer items — it all goes up on eBay. It’s a pity.
It’s a pity because immediate and detailed inspection of these fragile treasures is impossible until AFTER the transaction has taken place. While this was also a problem in the old mail-order LP biz (does that even still exist?), the market of sellers of those old days was more likely limited to a professional class of dealers, who’d go to the effort of placing ads. Most transactions have been OK+, but the real lame ones outweigh the real good ones. Your service of rating and tracking dealers is a good thing — please keep it up!
Yes, I still buy the occasional disc on eBay, for usually too much money, but now I just mostly watch. This ‘irrational exuberance’ of some of the winning bids makes for good bloodsport!
Thanks — I really enjoy your periodic emails.
This is a comment originally posted by Charles Ledvina:
“Hi, Al. I happen to agree with Larry Cohn on the false market. However, there is also the false market that is an advantage to collectors like me — the kinda guy that wants a really good sounding analog pressing — in other words, the Japanese pressings.
Wow, last year I won approximately 200 Japanese pressings on eBay (most of them Blue Note and Prestige). The average price with postage came to $14. The Jazz Record Center charges twice that and my favorite store here in Milwaukee is getting close to $50. I’ve noticed the winning prices are increasingly lately on Japanese pressings too — however, my collection is darn near complete.
One more thing: I think Fred Cohen at the Jazz Record Center sets the actual market value on records. I feel his pricing is fair and that’s whom I compare my prices with to determine if I scored a deal or got ripped-off.
Oh how I long for the days (1986-1991) when I could purchase brand new Toshibas for under $20 and find original Helen Merrills on Emarcy and Kind of Blue for $8.99. Thanks.
This is a comment originally posted by Brian Ross:
“Regards. My friend forwarded me a copy of your excellent newsletter and I have just now subscribed. As a subscriber, I would like to respond to Larry Cohn’s contention that eBay is creating a ‘false’ pricing structure.
I think it’s hard to dismiss eBay as a market indicator of jazz LP prices. The truest markets are those that are most liquid. It would seem that, for better or worse, eBay is now the market by which the greatest number of jazz LPs trade hands on a daily basis.
Pre-eBay, a record dealer had to rely on a person finding his shop, coming into this shop and desiring to purchase a particular record the dealer happened to have on hand at the price at which it was offered. Record sales in this context were done in a vacuum and noncompetitive pricing was often flexible since the dynamic was one of a customer walking out the door, without a sale being made if the price didn’t suit that customer’s desire. In the eBay-era, a person/dealer listing an LP for sale has a ‘world’ of record collectors stopping by his or her virtual store, in many cases individuals who have come online looking specifically for the record on sale. This is the truest form available of seller meeting focused buyer or buyers.
It is likely true that many record prices on eBay end up being higher because of people being caught up in the ‘heat of the auction.’ And, in such case, a person looking at that one particular sale for a specific LP would be unwise to take the purchase price s the going ‘market’ for the LP. However, in my experience, I have yet to see any fairly known jazz LP title on eBay (including almost every conceivable Blue Note title) where multiple copies haven’t been up for auction during and 3- or 6-month period. Thus, a canvassing of prices of a specific title will give a fairly accurate pricing guide and support the contention that eBay is a fairly priced market for jazz LPs. (One reason I like your newsletter.)
It has also been my experience that while prices of highly-sought-after titles, such as Blue Notes, Prestige and Riverside titles, have clearly gone up at the dealers that still maintain real-world stores in response to rising prices on eBay (I find little difference between stores’ prices and eBay prices, even with the most reputable of dealers), those same dealers have yet to lower the prices on the other LPs in response to the lower prices of such LPs on eBay. Hardly a day goes by when one couldn’t pick up a beautiful NM copy of a George Shearing LP from 1959 or 1960 for three to five bucks or less on eBay. I’ve yet to walk into a dealer and been afforded that deal.
That all being said, the biggest problem I find with eBay is the lowering of grading standards. When I walk into a dealer, for example, Fred Cohen’s Jazz Record Center in NYC, and a record is graded near mint, I know that’s what it is and it never disappoints. More often than is reasonable, a NM grade afforded by an eBay seller is closer to VG+ than anything else. This is where eBay has been a hindrance rather than a help to us ‘less-advanced’ collectors.
Also, anybody selling $75 near-mint copies of Song For My Father, please email me. I’ll be happy to buy all the copies you are selling.”
This is a comment originally posted by Bonnie Kane of StarryNightRecords:
“Greetings. This is in response to the statements posed by Larry Cohn with relation to the pricing issues on eBay. Admittedly, as a seller on eBay, I often see prices bid much higher than I ever expected. I have also seen great items go for less than expected. I also see prices quoted in the Jazz Collector newsletter that I’ve never even heard of. But market value is, after all, determined by the market. And the market is determined by who happens to be shopping during the period that an item is for sale.
There is a certain randomness in this and a multitude of variables. For example, the deep-pocket buyer could be on vacation the week that you are selling a high-ticket item. You, as the seller, have a choice: Either hold out for the price you want, or sell to the highest bidder or best offer. The time frame of the typical seven-day eBay auction puts this into a fine focus. But it is really the same as having a physical store where you can hold the stock indefinitely until your price is met, or you have a clearance sale. The eventual price and thus worth is determined by who actually comes in and purchases the item.
So, in evaluating a personal collection, I would advise taking a modest approach and try to average things out. I agree with Mr. Cohn in the fact that a range of pricing is really a little more reflective for these items.
But to dismiss the collectors and others who do business on eBay and other auctions and online communities as less than serious or simply a flash in the pan is short-sighted. Business is an evolving, fluid type of thing. The way that we buy, sell, collect, has completely changed due to computers, email, electronic payment, etc. And even the collectors are changing due to that thing we call time. New and younger collectors are always making first-time discoveries for themselves; older collectors realize that they can’t take it with them and they return these gems to the marketplace (or else their survivors do, and then you see the mayhem).
Classic dealers, private arrangements, long-established lines — yes I am sure that these exist. But there is a whole other significant area of action taking place, moving these artifacts of culture into this new future, where ‘market value’ is really ‘market value at that moment.’ And we are all quite serious.”
This is a comment originally posted by Tony Young:
Greetings Al! As an eBay member since December 1997, I have found bidders engaged in the ‘eBay psychosis:’ Ego-Driven Bidding. ‘He won’t outbid me!’ A Bidding war ensues and prices go through the rafters for no other reason than ego. I’ve been victim of the disease and overpaid — and also made some great deals. Not much else explains the phenomenon. With my seller hat on, I love it!
’50s Christmas decorations intrigue me and I’ve seen bidders pay WAY over book on absurdly cheap decorations, i.e. $247 for a fairly common (normally $20) series 8 c-6 light string. I’m sure the ‘ego’ thing permeates every eBay category. Early on, before eBay set up communication restrictions, I even had an occasional perturbed bidder email me whining that I had sniped them at the last minute!
eBay functions in unusual ways in our culture. As an environmentally concerned person, I see eBay as a huge recycler of many items that would have headed to the garbage dump. It also offers some less-than-well-to-do people the chance to make some income. It seems true that eBay can drive prices either way. Vinyl seems to be increasing in price from five years ago when sellers couldn’t give it away. Except for special high-quality pressings, vinyl seemed headed to the tank. That trends seems to have reversed with some records I own now double in price.
Nikon cameras commanded a high price in the late ’90s. Due to digital photography and eBay’s sellers pulling every Nikon out of basements and attics, their prices are way down. My Nikon cameras are now worth a quarter or a third less than before. Bummer. Same happened to Hummel figures. I can’t really think of any BAD effects from eBay’s presence in our culture, except for emphasis on ‘things’ instead of ‘people.'”
This is a comment originally posted by Ken Masters:
“Hello, Al. I too believe that Mr. Cohn might be wrong about eBay inflating prices. Though I do not regularly pursue the high-dollar Blue Note items, I’ve noticed that in my smaller world of less-expensive jazz LP auctions, timing is at least as important as the condition and relative value of an auction piece.
Some weeks I receive no bids on items that in the following week produce 10 or more bids. Sometimes I receive notes from bidders who are dismayed that they did not see my item until after it closed. People, even avid collectors, have way too much going on in their lives to be on the Internet chasing their music ‘fixes’ all the time.
As a buyer, I’ve missed on items only to find them later at both higher and lower costs. Surely there is an averaging effect, but the prices are real on eBay most of the time. Thanks for reading. “
This is a comment originally posted by Tim Beeman:
“Gouging/Overpaying! Thank God I have gotten all the Heavy Hitters before this eBay phenomenon! Man it was a time you could get these records 10 years ago for a reasonable price!!!. Unfortunately, I fall victim to some of this gouging/overpaying.
I have a love/hate relationship with eBay. You can find some great pieces. I’ll be glad when I can come to the day of not studying eBay at all and get into some serious listening.”
This is a comment originally posted by Howard Goldin:
“Hi. This is Howard Goldin. My thought on eBay is that it HAS COMPLETELY RUINED THIS HOBBY FOR ALL BUT MORONS.”
EBay is a tool which allows a myriad of buyers to trade with sellers, who in the mail order market were limited to their customer lists. Moreover I see the phenomenon of the occasional seller, who without Ebay, would not know how to decently dump his unwanted records.
EBay also reflects the market orientations: the generation who liked traditional jazz is fading away and the prices for trad jazz are low. The same will happen to the Blue Notes which are bringing gold now. This Blue Note generation is bound to disappear. The question is when? 5 – 10 years seems a good guess.
I would like to add something that no one here seems to be taking into account: inflation!!! During the past decade or so, the value of the dollar as compared to other world currencies has tanked. This is especially significant in the international marketplace that eBay has become. If you look at the location of eBay auction winners, you’ll see that it just so happens that the buyers who win the highest priced auctions are often from countries whose currencies have performed most favorably against the dollar. As a seller myself, I’ve noticed around a 30%-50% increase in prices over the past few years – but in a marketplace where the buyers determine the selling price through bidding, how can anyone argue with the reality of those prices? I should also note that, due also to the dollar falling and global economic trends, as a seller in the past few years I’ve gotten more buyers from “non-first-world” countries than ever before. I’m talking about collectors from countries like Malaysia, Brazil, China, Indonesia, Thailand, Estonia, Turkey, Mexico, etc., newly coming to the marketplace and paying top dollar. It’s simple supply and demand. How could anyone think that the price that some old-timer in his bricks-and-mortar store sets for a record based on his experience in the economy of a decade ago has any bearing in the global electronic marketplace of today, in an open, respected, international auction system like eBay? I can’t say that collectible vinyl will be in demand forever, but the overall upward trend, especially if you’re talking USD value, is undeniable.
Re new countries. I mailed my first record to Lithuania today.
Quote from Larry: ” around 1983 virtually all the albums would have been dumped by their original owners, since the Japanese dealers and collectors were paying upwards of $500 to $2,000 for many titles which previously sold routinely in the $20-$40 range”
Does any on here have personal experience of selling to Japan in this period of Jazz LP collecting? If so, what were the hot titles and this time in Japan? Does anybody remember the prices certain LPs were fetching on the Japanese market?
Great thread. As someone who started up building a jazz vinyl collection from scratch 5 years ago, eBay has been a godsend. I live in Atlanta, where I also have some retail options, but again, these are very hit and miss and I spend more on gas and time trying to strike gold.
I am about to try my hand selling my duplicates on eBay. Maybe I can catch some of that bidding irrational exuberance on my stuff.
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I think ebay provides a fair market price for anyone willing to take the time to seek out the best deal. I believe the “rare” jazz lps are often inflated by overzealous buyers, but there are many other great original pressing lps (including Blue Note, Prestige, etc.) that are reasonable on ebay. I have seen nice original copies of “Something Else” sell for less than $70. You can buy an original copy of “Black Byrd” (great jazz/funk) for under $15 easily. I used to buy late 50’s Blue Note original pressings from my local record shop in Houston for $50 (five years ago). It is still possible to find these types of deals on ebay if you are patient and have the time to do the multiple bidding. My only complaint with ebay is the fact many sellers only grade visually instead of actually listening to the lp. I do not like to spend more than $50 on a lp from ebay only to find out it has a skip or a lot of surface noise. At my local record store, I am able to play test the record at the store or return the record if it has an unforeseen skip. It is too much trouble to have to mail records back. Therefore, I usually try to spend less than $50-$75 a record on ebay and stay clear of the “rare” lps.
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Young jazz collectors exist! I am 32 and have been collecting jazz and blues records for about 10 years now. I know several other collectors of my age too.
Ebay has triggered a price increase, for several reasons. First of all the entire world market is bidding on records now, where before ebay only a small and limited number of clients at a record store or fair would determine a price.
Secondly the US dollar collapsed so badly in 2007 and 2008, that is now a very good moment for us Europeans to buy records with our EUROS.
However, the best deals one obtains by building up a good network amongst fellow jazz collectors in your area, trading your double copies and buying collections when a collector from a previous generation passes away or needs money.
I do very much agree with Rudolf and his argument that the current high-paying collector group will fade away within a considerably short time. Which in consequence means I’m strengthening the idea that Ebay inflates the market in a way. I’m 32 years old, starting to collect the “everyone-wants-them” Blue Notes in Germany and next to never see people of my age in Record Stores with Jazz (i live in the countryside though). By my own way of listening to music quite frequently in mp3-form, it’s easy to imagine that a generation growing up with this way of music- consumation will certainly not spawn a great number of record collectors IN GENERAL, leaving the number of them collecting jazz records a tiny fraction. This will, most probably within 30 years at the longest, lead to the effect that even the scarcest Blue Note LPs should drop severly in prices, even on ebay, i imagine: On the one hand side, older collector’s items will flood the market, since their heirs will most probably not want thousands of records, the falling number of collectors on the other hand side will thus most probably get their records at a lower price. I absolutely can’t understand how people can regard the purchase of a 2000$-Record in this ligth a way of clever money investment, as Al i think sometimes supposes they see it. Which in the end leaves me at age 30-something at the moment a bit frustrated by the current prices combined with the outlook on probably never being able to regain the invested money. This may sound a bit “economically-only-thinking”, but for me at a price of above 45 $ every record i buy becomes an investment, though i would very much more like it to be simply bought for the music. For example, i very much wish to own an original copy of any of the Jutta Hipp Hickory-LPs, simply because I enjoy the music and it gives me a thrill that one of the earliest recording artist for Blue Note was a German Woman. But as the market for these LPs dictates prices I cannot afford at the moment, I definitely will not buy one since I’m sure it will have lost value in a range of hundreds of dollars when i’m in a far away future might want to part with it again. Thanks for reading, Chris
Hmm this makes for an interesting read in 2021. Who was right and who was wrong 😉
Well the market has only gone up. Interest in vintage jazz LPs and Audiophile editions continue to rise.
However there is the Discogs factor that was not prevalent in 2011 in the same way as today. Ebay’s role has diminished but the international interest in Vintage Jazz LP’s has certainly not.
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