Happy Birthday? Well, Maybe Next Year
It so happens the records I mentioned in the Jazz Record Center post happened to be on eBay this weekend: Freddie Redd, Shades of Redd, Blue Note 4045. This was an original pressing and it was in M- condition for both the record and the cover. It was sold by Euclid Records and fetched a price of $1,037. Then there was Paul Chambers, Bass on Top, Blue Note 1569. This also looked to be an original pressing and it was described as VG++ condition for the record and the cover. It sold for $461. The question I asked myself, if the Jazz Record Center had these records in the store, and they were set at these prices, would I have purchased them, even as a special birthday present. The answer? Perhaps the Chambers, but definitely not the Redd, even though, musically, I prefer Shades of Redd and it is one of my favorite Blue Notes. I still have a hard time paying more than $1,000 for a record although, all things considered, it’s probably a good investment, right?
Well, Al, as someone said in the comment field when we were discussing the Mobley 10″ that went for 2,000 Bucks recently (and I quote): “For you young collectors, 30 years from now this Mobley will be selling for 6 figures and you’ll be saying I remember when it sold for $3,000.=” -In other words, Al: if you get yourself a 1,000 dollar Shades of Redd today, you know it’ll be worth 100,000 in thirty years! ‘Cause if you count the zeros, that’s five, plus the 1, well: that’s six figures. In other words: a good investment indeed; it’ll buy most of us a great stroller by that time! 😀
Of course the stroller remark is all tongue in cheek and absolutely no disrespect, it’s more to put the feeling aside that I, too, cannot afford 1,000+ Dollar 1st pressings. But let me tell you this: if I truly was a millionaire, I’d fork out the money in a heartbeat, not even thinking about whether it’d be a good investment or not.
Actually the market can both go Up and Down. I’m not so sure the prices of 1st Ed
Jazz LPs will continue to just go up and up and tenfold in value in the next 10
years. Just extrapolating will not do the trick.
In the end it is just supply and demand. Probably the high prices reached today is
depending on the factor that buyers who are into jazz have reached the age and money
income that allows them to bid high on old records. Not seldom in Japan and Korea,
but ofcourse all over the globe.
However when and if buyers start to buy on speculation on future price increases the
market will eventually react and create a balloon that is very sensitive to market
fluctuations. The art market has shown this in the past and jazz is art – not? 😉
Are we there yet? Na, probably not, but I start to think sometimes that if not the
buyer does not think he will get his/her money back in the future, he will not buy
at extreme prices anymore. Who want’s to make a bad deal right?
The prices of jazz LPs are in my opinion getting “further away from the need to
listen to the music”. You don’t really need to buy the 1st ed to enjoy Hank Mobley.
So much jazz is available on CD’s and in good enough sound quality to be useful.
Interestingly the value of a jazz record is not so affected by the availability on
CD. At least not in the higher price ranges.
So why buy a $1000 dollar LP when you can buy the CD (with extra tracks) for $10?
Well you all know the answer;-) You are buying something more than the music. A
piece of history, a work of art cover, a feeling, completing your collection, the LP
makes you feel happy and content etc. etc. Nothing wrong with that and the demand is
heavily depending on your and future generation’s good will to pay now and in the
future. Will people with lots of money and no real interest in jazz enter the market
on speculation is another interesting question? It has happened in the art market so
why not jazz collectibles? I however really really hope we will not fully get there.
I think the key to all this lies in what will happen to jazz-listening in the
future. I’m 43 and I only have a few friends who appreciate jazz in my age group. I
try to at educate my kids to appreciate the best music I know,-) But will today’s
kids and younglings actually fork up big money for old jazz records? Who knows? Will
the market be punished when today’s premium buyers start to pass on and increase
supply? Will future generations tag along nicely and work on their own collections
of originals?
The market can certainly swallow a whole lot of premium LPs like BN, Prestiges etc.
which will always be rare and collectible. If demand is high the 2nd and 3rd
pressing, Kings etc will also go up and they have. However the not so premium ones
will have a hard time finding buyers?
Tell me something new you might think. I guess no one has the answers yet. The ones
who live will see 😉
/Shaft
Hello
I had a Japanese collector over years ago, he was actually one of the few I could understand as he spoke perfect english. As always I had tons of questions. I asked him why do the Japanese pay so much for Jazz Records. He said in my country we collect Jazz the same way people collect rare editions of books and pieces of art, knowing in time that the $200.00 I spend on a Blue Note will 10 fold in 10 to 15 years.
He also explained that it was very hard to invest in real estate in Japan as the prices are very high and his investment in Jazz records is a very solid investment. Well I have to run more later on Aki
I think the past few comments suggest something that needs to be underscored. That is:the extent to which today’s investment in jazz records becomes a worthwhile or sensible purchase is DIRECTLY connected to the extent of the investment that is also put into cultivating,educating,enlightening and supporting at ALL levels today’s jazz LISTENER/AUDIENCE. The pleasure that is derived from those “old’ lps is a gift that keeps on giving. The only way we “know” that is because we(assumedly) learned to value the music FIRST. (Try listening to poorly conceived sessions-weak tunes,boring solos,group never jells-by any musician you can name. Does the date sound “better” because it’s an original pressing? Do you cherish it more? I don’t think so.) In a word,you can’t talk about one(future value)without acknowledging the need for the other(an educated consumer).
As I write this,my local jazz radio station is in the midst of a fund drive. I’m already a member,so to me supporting such efforts is a good place to start.
One thing that I also rarely here mentioned about the recent uptick in record prices is the weak dollar relative to mostly the yen but also the euro(this has been going on for a while but the weak yen is within the past year). High end records are primarily exchanged in dollars. The Yen has gained approximately %20 on the dollar in the past year and a half. That means that Japanese collectors are paying less than what they use to, which would allow them to drive prices up a bit and still pay what they’ve been paying. This analysis is overly simplistic but I think pretty accurate. All it takes are two people to drive up the price and if the Japanese(and to a lesser extent the Koreans) are on of those two people they are more likely to pay more dollars than they use to, do to the strength of the dollar vs Yen.
but the big question will be: do kids that will be born this year, listen and collect the (hard bop) jazz in 30 years??
How manny of us collect 78 rpm lp’s????
Maarten,I’m not sure that analogy works. There are any number of sessions that were initially released on 78-say,Bird’s DIAL or Savoy dates-that are cherished when found in their LP format(or cd for that matter). The Lester Young cd box set on Mosaic is amazing because of it’s musical content,which is not diminished because the originals were on 78’s! I think the slightly different question as to whether someone born this year will seek out-this music,LP format- 30 years hence,again,depends mostly on how well we cultivate “the field” in the meantime. And if one of these “futurejazzers” is fortunate enough to be born into a family where the music is loved as it is by those reading this right now,well…lucky kid,eh?
Maarten, that is the question. It is all a matter of tastes, acquired or not. This generation of Japanese, Koreans and some Europeans and Americans, that digs hard bop, will disappear, like the post WW2 generation that dug traditional jazz, has disappeared. The prices for trad have tumbled. Reference Bill Russell’s 10″ American Music albums that don’t fetch any money nowadays. Until the nineties they fetched good money.
I don’t believe vinyl is a good, lasting investment.
If I would follow only my financial instincts, I should start now to sell my Blue Notes, Prestige, Riverside etc. I don’t, since there are other considerations than financial only.
Hello All
Glad to see everyone is getting involved in this. What will be collected in the year 2040?
Collecting Records in the year 2040 will not be for the music.
But will be for the rich to own pieces of history.
a)There will be of course Professional Grading Services.
b)Records will be graded on a scales just like coins and comic books are today!
c)Number of copies of a particular rare Jazz record in scales from 8 – 9 will be known (Records will be sealed in hard plastic with the grade) and the prices will go higher and higher and the millionaires and billionaires will fight for them, just to say they own them!
Not for the music of course.
Well, folks, I’ve read some pretty interesting replies here. The one thing I’d like to add here is my view on the “what kids will listen to and be interested in these old records in the future” question. I bought my first ever Jazz ‘sound carrier’ (Blue Train, on CD of course) in 1992. I was 21 back then. Why I bought it had a reason, which I described in my guest column, and I’ll quote myself here: “The first jazz album that I ever bought was John Coltrane – Blue Train, in 1992. There was a reason why I bought it. My favorite Dutch writer (and known jazz collector, drummer and DJ), Jules Deelder, has written many long and short stories about his deep love for jazz, how he first heard it as a little boy and how mesmerized he was by the voice and trumpet playing of, as he’d find out later, Chet Baker. His endless hunts for vinyl are the most fun to read, since I had been digging like that myself for seventies funk for years. I wanted to know more about jazz, ’cause if Jules Deelder dug so frantically, it had to be good. I honestly had not listened to one jazz album in my entire life before 1992. So I went to my favourite record store and grabbed Blue Train, simply because it was the only title I knew and I liked the cover. I got home and played it, many times for days on end. A whole new world of music opened up for me and I bought more.” -So again: I was 21 back then and when you’re 21, you’re still a kid. Still I got interested in jazz and bought more and more. And finally, in the last two years, I started buying original Jazz vinyls, which also explains why eventually I ended up on Jazzcollector. In other words: new jazz aficionados will stand up and sooner or later they will start buying that good old vinyl and marvel over those real pieces of actual history. I think it’ll always continue. Just look at the amount of new cats like me that have recently said ‘hi’ on Jazzcollector ’cause they started collecting only recently. Last but not least @ Maarten: the only reason I hardly ever buy 78s is because they’re so incredibly fragile. I have two professional turntables that can play 78s and have actual 78RPM switches on them and I do own a few great 78s. But to buy them online with all the shipping and stuff, I just think it’s too risky. 😉
Interesting comments all around,I’d say-great! More food for thought-this just closed listing for a 78 from Jazz Record Center,as Pop’s might say “a good ol’goodun”:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Louis-Armstrong-Hot-Five-OKeh-/300517373798?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item45f83b3766
If you truely want to become rich, northern soul is a whole galaxy onto itself…and you mostly only get two tracks per record!
Check this out:
http://www.popsike.com/SCARCE-Northern-Soul-45-Junior-McCants-KING-RARE-PROMO/180295199832.html
http://www.popsike.com/Magnetics-on-Bonnie-rare-Detroit-northern-soul-45/4796664144.html
Now $1000 may sound a lot for a BN, but these fellas are paying up to 15-20 grand on a 45!! Original BN and Prestiges had small runs but I would say they always stayed in the thousands, some of these Northern Soul records had runs in their 100’s and less. Beauty is in the eye of the behoder, will these hold their value or increase???
Food for thought me thinks…
Speaking of 78s from the reason JRC auction, Fred told me the Mingus 78 was from his personal collection and one of only 3 or so he’s ever heard of. Way rarer than any first edition Blue Notes. I think I’ve seen that Louis 78 before, it’s sought after too. I play them occasionally, but I have no idea about there rarity or value. I’ve been meaning to research but haven’t found the time. I have a seperate table(my grandmothers old table) to play them on which costs a tiny fraction of what my regular table costs. I don’t even keep it hooked up usually. What are some of everyones favorites?
I’m not sure what the market will do in the future. The world has made me skeptical of prices always rising. I do think though that prices will plateau eventually.
Not sure about 78’s. They don’t travel well, and I am unconvinced they capture superior audio quality, but since I don’t have a means to play them I open to persuasion.
The MD of the company that makes my turntable mentioned he had been an audio industry meeting future-gazing session.
Seems everyone agreed the CD will soon disappear, and there would be two media remaining – vinyl, for those that value the artefact and superior audio quality, and download, for those that don’t.
As a result, CDs will become a rare niche market,even collectible, as nostalgia for the last decade replaces sentiment currently focused on the early Sixties.
Myself, I don’t believe, but Im holding on to everything in case.
Great topic, interesting comments… Most of you focused on the future demand for rare jazz vinyl records, what about supply?
I believe that just minority of rare LP owners are aware of the value, as well many of them would not take care about them properly resulting in continuous decrease of mint copies on the market.
My personal view is, less and less collectors will buy LPs to enjoy the music, more and more will look for value for money – both groups would balance the total demand. Accordingly the prices for rare collectible LPs should raise in long term, common pressing would hardly find buyers…
I tend to agree with Maarten’s 78rpm idea. If I look at the teenagers around me absolutely nobody of them at all buys music on a storage medium (Vinyl / and even CD). They all download mp3 files for free. I doubt that the major part of them will change their mind in the future. Sure the sound of these digital files is horrible – but they dont seem to care. Again sure some of them will change their habits but I think the market will shrink at some point in the future….at least I hope to win some nice records for better prices then…:-)
Al, sorry to be late: Happy birthday!
GW, I think you are very right about people accepting the quality of there downloads. That’s why I evangelize quality every chance I get. I try and get people to listen to my system. I also give people demos on headphones of the difference between mp3 and lossless audio codecs. Even with head phones that don’t properly reproduce the bass(pretty much all of them) most people can still tell a nice difference. I haven’t had a ton of success but some, mostly people acknowledge the difference but don’t care. But every little bit of success counts.
Mike, I am convinced part of the equation is that we are talking jazz played almost entirely on acoustic intruments and vinyl analogue as a medium. The two things are absolutely made for each other.
90% of what “da kids” is listenin’ to is created out of digital electronics and sampling. I have some modern vinyl with modern music and it doesn’t work -often worse than CD.
Jazz is happily locked in a previous culture. Few people will spend the time it takes to master a real instrument today, and they won’t master improvisation by playing live every night. Instead, we have millions of would be “singers” everywhere. And serial downloaders with their addiction to constant novelty for free means no money for any but a few big artists. Depressing.
Fortunately help is at hand. Jazz Collector, ebay, and a good hifi.
Kids growing up these days indeed hear nothing but over compressed music, delivered in MP3s. It reminds me of a quote from Numair Faraz: “The record companies do not try to foster a creative environment which rewards musicians who serve their respective niche, but create an environment which attempts to market a small amount of music to the largest audience possible.” And he is right. But in my favourite record store I see something very encouraging: young people in their late teens, early twenties, buying VINYL. A lot of small independent record labels nowadays still sell their releases on vinyl and whether it’s a hype or not, just like me there will be plenty of youngsters that eventually will get bitten by the vinyl bug and end up on Jazzcollector or eBay just like me. Difference with me is that I already collected vinyl for years before I moved from seventies funk to Jazz, but then still: if there are kids collecting stamps in the year 2011, then there will also be kids collecting vinyl eventually. Last but not least one last remark to confirm what London Calling said: most modern top40 crap is fully created in the digital domain and mastered as loudly as possible. Over compressed and hard limited as well. Open an audio file like that on your computer screen and you’ll see a “brick”. The actual wave with all its dynamics is nowhere to be found. If you play a mint record on your system for them to listen to, the first thing they say is to turn up the volume…
Hello All – Tales Of The Hunt.
I was in a record store around 1964 just talking to the owner about some records I had found in a junk store most of them were instrumentals nobody ever heard of and I told him I wish I had a clean copy of one particular record! Somebody said why dont you see if you can find the owner of the company… Yeah right what am I a detective (lol)… 1966 I went into the service got out in 1970 still had that beatup record and I remembered I should look for the owner.. But how? I went to the library but what am I looking for? I asked the libarian she told me we dont have a big music section, she than let me hit the LOTTO !!!! She said why dont you go to The Lincoln Center Music Library NYC.. Which I did still not knowing what I was looking for. I took the record with me The Group was The Chiefs on a label called Greenwich. Again I asked the librarian at Lincoln Center she told me to look on a particular shelf for Billboard Magazines. As I was walking towards the shelf a man approached me Hello with a deep voice, he told me I heard your converation with the young lady come with me he pulled from a shelf a looseleaf folder that contained around 800 pages, he said can I see the record I gave it to him he looked at it, flipped thru the book and said the owner was on the 3rd Floor 1650 Broadway if he still there. He told me each record made is registered with either BMI, ASCAP or SESAC. But most are BMI! on the record it was BMI. WOW I said, I asked him is name and how did he know so much. His name was Clark Terry and he told me he used the center for his research on music and that he played Jazz. At that time I never really had any of his records and I said Thank You and left. Tomorrow the trip to 1650 Broadway
Real cool Nick. Thanks for the story, looking forward to tomorrow.
Mattyman & LC, you are right about music being done nowadays in the digital domain. I just have faith that eventually there will be someone in the record industry that will catch on and start putting out quality. Maybe it will be from smaller Indy labels and this will catch on. Maybe not but I hope as while most of what I listen to is from 50s-70s i enjoy plenty from nowadays tool. Some of it is recorded well, but then again its not popular stuff nor is it usually major label stuff. I think there are people out there if given the opportunity appreciate quality recordings of acoustic music. I just have to show them.
Thanks everyone for all the insightful comments 😉
I’ve given a lot of thought also on the topic if the CD will disappear or live on?
Most people obviously think that mp3 or even high rez download will eventually make the CD disappear and it won’t be worth crap. Audio guys are ripping their CDs into harddrives and play from there. Convenient and nice sound quality too.
I’m not so sure however that there will be no market for used CDs. Of course the cds will never be originals. But rare remastered pressing will in my opinion increase. Many times they offer the best sound quality of a jazz work and can be useful in high quality sound systems when ripped. There is however a competition with not so legal file sharing options. But many people actually want to own what you listen to. I’m one of them for sure 😉
Look at the Mosaic records used market and you will get the idea. High quality masters, limited supply and lots of nice and useful information about the music makes them very collectible and expensive.
How I began.
in the mid sixties I grew up with the Beatles and listened to pop/rock music all day long until I decided to approach something different.I said:gotta listen to one jazz record.Done:I went down to my local shop and saw a record in the window.A black man I never heard of with two white young kids aside.In my mind jazz should be black.I liked the cover and brought it home,happy for owning my first jazz record.
first track:an incredibly distorted guitar sound ! couldn’t be jazz,and it wasn’t.that was my first encounter with Mr.Jimi Hendrix,back in 1967.liked the record but wasn’t satisfied with my ignorance.
got back to the shop and,shy as I was,asked the lady for a musical tip (first and last time in my life).
Any idea ? she asked me:no,I only know it must be black (ignorance once more).so she said:”I love this cat,get a couple of his records,bring ’em home and let me know”.I was a good customer then.
Impulse A-50 and A-94.
I was knocked out,can’t use other words.
my life changed in a moment:I discovered and fell in eternal love with jazz.The same thing did happen only once more,decades later,but it’s my personal life and you won’t be interested.
A-50:J Coltrane live at Birdland
A-94:new thing at Newport (Trane and Shepp).
Well, Dottore, that is a great piece of history right there. Love these personal anecdotes! 😉