Mobley Blue Note 1568: Looking For A Record?
As CeeDee was kind enough to point out, there is a killer record (that’s American colloquialism for our Asian and European friends — the record actually hasn’t killed anyone) on eBay now: Hank Mobley, Blue Note 1568. This looks to be an original pressing. The cover is described as “Pristine.” The record is described as “Unplayed.” The price is now more than $1,000 and there are still six days to go on the bidding. There is also a “buy-it-now” price of $5,000 and, frankly, I think someone will pop in to get this gem off the market quickly, setting a new high price for the Jazz Collector Price Guide. The seller has a full description of how he purchased this record, and many others, from the late jazz vinyl dealer Leon Leavitt. This will be one to keep an eye on.
Also on eBay now: Curtis Fuller, The Opener, Blue Note 1567. This too looks to be an original pressing. It is listed in VG+ condition for both the record and the cover. The start price is $700 and there’s a little more than one day left to bid. So far there are no bidders.
How about some of those items we were watching yesterday?
Kenny Dorham, Round Midnight at the Cafe Bohemia, Blue Note 1524. When we pegged this one, the start price was around $750 and there were no bidders. Voila — it sold for $1,136.55. Freddie Redd, Shades of Redd, Blue Note 4045. This one was also sitting at around $750 with no bidders. It sold for $791.03. Voila again. If I ever decide to really sell advertising on Jazz Collector, here’s more evidence that it would work quite well.
I know the seller of this Curtis Fuller record. He used to be a (very anthipathic) record dealer in Nice some years ago. It is of course better for him to sell on a professional basis without actually paying any kind of taxes or legal charges. Frankly speaking I will certainly not buy anything from this seller
Eyes wide shut:
first pressing has 47 west New York 23 on side two.
not this one, ah!
Dottorjazz : absolutely right. One more reason for staying away.
does anyone else know the following horrible feeling: You buy a PRISTINE ORIGINAL old record, but it looks so flawless and new that it becomes difficult to “enjoy” the originality..?!.. (i know, it’s a luxery-problem)
by the wat: herr Dottorjazz is right: al the top selling BN 1568 have New York 23
Dottor jazz : the 1568 was issued AT THE SAME TIME with both labels variation. So the the two labels variation can be sonsidered as first press.
By a coincidence, that 1567 Curtis Fuller also just popped up on the wall at the Notting Hill Record Exchange, claims VG+ all the right references for an original, asking £600 GBP.
That may look quite reasonable when this auction closes.
It must be National Curtis Fuller Week, as I chanced on a third copy of 1567 today, over in Camden, this time on Division of United Artists labels, near mint and 95% cheaper. I don’t usually stoop this low, but I made an exception. It’ll do until a better affordable copy turns up, which is probably never.
found this statement:
Note: The Holy Grail of Jazz collectors. 1568 was pressed in a very limited number. 500 total lp’s were made on one run only. The first 200 used the NY 23 label on side two, the rest were the 47 W 63rd NY. All of them were the deep groove, and all of them came from the same run…
This is not the original pressing, and should therefore be considered a 2nd pressing. Fred Cohen’s guide says NY23 on side 2, I’ll go with that.
Fredrik, If they were all pressed in the same run does that not make it an original? I have no evidence but this record is famous for being pressed in one small pressing run like maarten kools said. If so then they are both original.
Yeah Mike, maybe. But I have to have some kind of blueprint of what is and what is not an original. I’ve made Fred Cohen’s guide my blueprint and I’ll stick to that. But if it’s true that the first 200 where printed with NY23 and the rest NYC, then I’ll still consider those first 200 copys 1st pressings. But it’s possible that the copys with NYC labels are second pressings, right? So, if there’s no way to be sure, I would not take the chance and pay a huge amount for a recordw hich i’m not sure is a true 1st pressing. Like i said, I’ve put my faith in Fred Cohen who is a highly credible source, as you surely know.
Maarten, I used to use that great “Holy Grail of Jazz Collectors” reference as a benchmark myself until I got the following notes from our friend Larry Cohn on the subject of BN 1568 awhile back:
“The popsike listing for BLP 1568 is made up. It represents a good example of that old parlor game, where you whisper a message in the next person’s ear, and when it goes around the circle and comes back to your ear, it has been changed or mangled. Not Rashomon, but the similar effect. What happened was that Cuscuna several decades ago told me that 600 copies of 1568 had been pressed in total, including test copies and review / promotion / audition copies. Unfortunately, there is no hard evidence substantiating the claim. What I do know is that it was pressed in a very low quantity, since it was dropped from the catalog rapidly, and not re-pressed. My stamper evidence plus “promotion copy” evidence convinced me that all copies were created equal, the labels be damned, so a copy with both labels 47 WEST 63rd NYC is as good as any other. However, the variation with a side 2 NY23 address on the label commands about 2-1/2 times more $ in the marketplace for whatever mystical reason. I think the going price is $2000 for the version with and $5000 for the other one, mint.”
(Thanks again for that Larry !)
…As far as Fred’s book is concerned, he generally had to take a stance one way or another on how to catalogue and define a first pressing, even if the label variations were all pressed in the same run. It only makes sense to list the the one with the earlier address as a first pressing, but in this case both variations are “original first pressings” but the NY23 on side 2 label variation seems a little “more original” and is that much more desired by us collectors as they were still using up the older labels, as in so many other BN favorites. I have also noticed that there is a slight variation in covers photo position, regardless of the label variation… The photo of Hank either has a beige gap above it just before the seam fold-over, or it doesn’t depending on it’s positioning when mounted over the cardboard sleeve in the manufacturing process… I have no idea if this is any indication of provenance though.
Anyone care to place a wager as to how much this one will go for ? (Put me down for $2500… Hopefully the reserve bid isn’t $5000 like the buy it now option, heh heh)
I think it’ll get the $5000.
Fredrik, I’m with you that one needs a guideline. Fred’s book is mine as well. One thing I do keep in mind is that it’s not perfect, just the best possible with the info he was given. An example of a question about his listing was when he sold the promo of 4059 without the one sided DG. Since it was a promo it does raise the possibility that 4059 first pressing is not a DG pressing.
Don-Lucky: sounds reasonable…
as we know he’s reading here, let’s hope in a Fred’s comment.
Fred has chosen to prefer, in case of doubt, an issue with “older” details as original first.
It seems strange enough, for this particular record, a planned 5-600 issue with 2 different label combinations ab initio, as we know there were no reprints.
Anyway we wait for some light.
Dottor, what seems stranger to me is not the low print run but the lack of reprints. It’s not Mobley’s greatest, but it’s still a fantastic album. I’m just surprised there wasn’t enough demand to warrant a repress.
…Well I’m out ! (It just hit $3000)
On the plus side, I do have some new info on the centering of BN cover slicks from our friend Larry Cohn (A vital contributor to Fred’s book for anyone who doesn’t already know him)
I posed the question: “Is there any relationship to the inconsistency in the cover photo positioning on BLP 1568 and the label variations between the two known label variations in the first pressing run ?
Here is Larry’s response:
“…I believe the answer is no. Main reason is well-known from the stereo transition era. Many labels especially Blue Note would have a single cover slick prepared circa 1967 for use on both mono and stereo versions, with the cover merely aligned differently when fabricating the final jacket. This was a foldover technique, and one can often see the “Stereo” designation hiding folded over underneath the back liner on a mono jacket (so it won’t show) for a given title. The most interesting of these was a forerunner, Lou Donaldson 4012 which had a dual purpose jacket for a stereo version that wasn’t used but you can see the STEREO designation hiding on many 4012 jackets looking at the back.
I am fairly certain that for 1568 the tolerance of about 1/8 of an inch resulted in two variations depending on how the slick was assembled, one with the black flush or beyond the top of the jacket and the other resulting in the 1/8 of an inch of buff between the front cover art and the top of the jacket.”
As always, thanks again to Larry for his valued input on these debates !
I don’t know about you guys, but I probably wouldn’t pay more than $2000 for a NM copy of BLP 1568 in unless it had the NY 23 address on Side 2 at least…
p.s. – Maaten, I still think there is some truth in the basic premis of the “Holy Grail” reference you noted above if we make a slight adjustment to the pecentages to suite the 600 total number pressed, then it is probably a close estimate.
Personally, the true “Holy Grail” of Blue Note collecting would be to find the original Blue Note ledgers / records of original pressing orders and quantities along with distribution information. Then we could at least know for sure how many were put out there originally. (Dare to dream right ?)
A label is a label. Could of found a box of them and used ’em. The employee who put the label onto the biscuit didn’t think “hey, I need to put NY 23 on one label only” They are just simply grabbed and used. No profit for the company if the employee is taking their time. Probably the first presses were a mix and someone 40 years later is sub-grouping them into what they believe the labels represent (so human.)
I do think the DG presses sound better. Screw labels – they don’t represent what I feel we buy records for: SOUND PEOPLE! DG labels tell me they were pressed with a certain pressing machine. EAR tells me where they were pressed (PLASTALYTE sic) @&#&*%@ Here’s a better question we should think about: are there DG presses without EAR(P) marks? Remember we are talking Blue Note here!
Observations from a very modest collection of 200 BN titles:
Every original Blue Note pressed by Plastylite with one, two or no DG has always had the P;
Without exception, Plastylite pressings are sonically superior to every other later pressing by Liberty, UA or Capitol, and better than modern audiophile specialist pressings.
Among Plastylite pressings, those closest to the original tapes and thereby the first laquer and mothers sound the best.
The older the better – Lex and 47W63rds , but NY first or second pressings can be just as good.
Very Early Liberty pressings are a close rival to Plastylite but went rapidly downhill as vinyl quality was eroded, production equiment electronics went digital, and stampers wore out.
For me the dividing issue is not DG and label , but “P”
I wouldn’t say 200 is modest. I would say thats a sweet collection, over half of the original 4000 series + 1500 series + 5000 series.
Problem with recalling numbers from memory without Fact Checking!
Don’t wish to overclaim, so for the record:-
Around 140 Blue Note “originals”, consisting of about 100 Blue Note (pre-1966)1st or 2nd press originals with “P”, 40 where 1st press was by Liberty (mainly no’s 4250 or higher or LT series not previously issued, and a few Japan-only releases.
On the Reissue side, a 135 Blue Note titles only as reissues, sourced from Liberty, UA, King and Toshiba. That sadly includes around 15 Look-a-Like Blue Notes with everything correct for an original except no “P” where one is expected.
This offers a pretty good cross-section of pressing qualities.
Still a very sweet collection. Mine is similar but with a few more audiophile reissues(which I do enjoy but think I am in the minority). Add on CDs to that a bunch of cds. Great thing about Blue Note is that the music is good to great for near all of the catalog. I love many Prestiges, Riversides, Verve, etc but I’ve never had as high of an opinion of a whole catalog as Blue Note.
I personally have never seen a DG no “P” from Blue Note but I imagine it could happen if the “P” didn’t press in well. I was looking at an Andrew Hill of mine were the “p” on one side is there but very weak compared to the other side which is far more pronounced.
I agree, in one case I’ve seen two P, one beside the other
One thing I’d like to ask the older cats here: that seller of the Hank Mobley 1568 and other great Blue Notes apparently was allowed to flip through the legendary Leon Levitt’s collection and grab the best of the best. Quote on 1568: “I went through 14 copies of this record at Leon’s warehouse and this is the best of the best.” I have only heard of Leon Levitt here on Jazzcollector and from what I’ve read, he was pretty strict with bidders that didn’t bid enough. One thing though: could it really be that he’d allow even his best friend to flip through his records to “just” grab the best copy, just like that? And last question: if he had 14 copies of 1568 and if he let that best friend grab the best copy, it leaves 13 other 1568s. Whatever happened to Leon Levitt’s collection after he passed? Just curious; I’m sure the older cats here can tell an anecdote or two, just like they have done before 😉
Hey Mattyman, I think that would certainly be an excellent question to pose to the seller directly when you have a moment… If he is who he claims to be, I am sure he would love to share some stories with us on this one, and perhaps the whereabouts of the rest of the collection.
First off,I see that the Mobley went for $5,600! Not bad-with the other Blue Notes(4 or 5 total),the seller grossed around 13k. Not too shabby a gig,possibly done from the comfort of one’s home computer.
Re:Leavitt-my memories are none too pleasant,although I acknowledge that I was a “newbie” to the trading lps “biz” at the time(mid-1970’s)and LL simply took advantage of my ignorance. As any shark would. That kind of mindset is part of what enabled him to collect those multiple copies of rare jazz lps,accumulated from numerous such dealings from across the US. He got into the biz when Japanese collectors were becoming less content to merely own locally pressed copies-they desired the ORIGINAL. Leon,along with a handful of others,fufilled those wants-and made quite a living in doing so. The good news(for me),is that decades later this much wiser collector can sell off a few dozen or so of my own lps and finance the purchase of a new,improved speaker system. Which I might have never imagined without(getting burned by)the late Leon Leavitt.
Question of course is, Don-Lucky, that I have only heard and read about Leon Levitt here on Jazzcollector. I don’t know enough about the man to put that seller to the test. Whatever he answers me, I can’t fact check it. After what I’ve read about Leon Levitt here on Jazzcollector, I think that he was a pretty tough guy (read Ceedee’s comment for instance) and it’s that simple fact that makes it so hard to believe for me that he would just allow a friend to flip through his rarest or rare and just grab the best and most mint pressing from his collection. Why would Levitt, the rough man (no disrespect), all of a sudden just give away a holy grail?
i never met leon personally, but i talked to him via telephone many many times, especially when i had a question about bluenote
lp’s. he ws well know by almost anyone into jazz lps living in calif, as well as the other dealers like tom burns, jack brown, and i;m sure fred cohen knew him as well.
let me tell u he knew his stuff and once told me he was offered the chance to
write a book about jazz collecting. i will also tell you he was a shrewd businessman back in his day, he would sale his records very very high (even for average jazz lp’s that where not considered rare.i remember calling him and asking him how much would he sle me three sounds 1st bluenote 1600 lp for, he told me $ 400 bucks, this was in like in 1994 .
i don’t believe the story of letting a person flip thru and grabbing the best records, i think that is just a little story the seller added to pump up the interest of his auctions., i could see if this was a relative of leon and he inherited the records- but a best friend… no way… may leon left a will of some sort to this guy
Love to read anecdotes like this! 😉
I had the great pleasure of buying some LPs from Leon in the early 80’s when he lived in Hollywood. The very large collection was in his garage or an added on room I think. He delt almost exclusively through little very detailed type written auction catalogs. The auction process escapes me now ( I never participated in the auctions), but considering that this was all pre-internet, it was primitive. I gathered that his clients were primarily Japanese. The prices were probably high for the time, but that was because would only sell at a “Buy it now” kind of price, at least as high as he would expect to get at the conclusion of the auction. Leon really did have multiple copies of rare LPs in mint unplayed condition, typically a couple of inches worth of shelf width of what seemed like everything. I never did ask him how he ever amassed that much rare material. Leon was always a kind and friendly man and I will always remember my visits as fondly.