Existential Thoughts About Non-Collectible Vinyl
Had an interesting observation last night. I was going through the jazz auctions page by page, probably 30-40 pages covering about 1,500 records over a period of more than 24 hours. What struck me was the incredibly large numbers of listings of jazz vinyl that simply won’t sell. Page after page of records that probably don’t have a market at almost any price. And a lot of it was good music — Brubeck, Ellington, Errol Garner, Count Basie, Monk and many, many, many others. Try it yourself and you’ll see what I mean. One of the questions I have is this: Who are all these sellers and what do they think they are doing? It’s not a new thing that the demand for many non-collectible records is declining and, in many cases, the shipping fees are worth more than the records themselves. Still, hundreds of sellers are going through the process and expense of taking pictures, creating descriptions and posting listings on eBay for items that will not sell. How long can this continue? At what point, if ever, does eBay become a more exclusive haven for higher-end collectibles, at least in the jazz vinyl market? The other question to ponder, for someone like me, is this this:
What happens to the non-collectible records in the future? I have many more non-collectible records than collectible ones and, although I like a lot of the music, I have many more records than I desire to keep. But there is no market for them, at least if I want to sell them. Where do they go? Is all that music, and the covers and liner notes, is it all destined for the garbage bin some day? Is there no afterlife for this stuff?
I’ve wondered the same thing–how do folks sell an LP or 45 for $1 on ebay and make any $ on that? the Paypal thing alone starts with $.30. I’ll sell inexpensive records on ebay when I have time, but only things that I think will sell for sure and I can make a few bucks on. Anything less than that and I keep, give away, or trade in at a record store.
As far as your bigger question goes: I think VG and better LP’s do fine in the “dollar bin”. As far as I can tell $1-$5 LP’s seem to sell well at record stores/record swaps/flea markets.
If you sell 50 $5 LP’s that you paid $2each for, you made $150–if you sell 50 $2 LP’s you paid .25each for you made almost $90. I think that stuff is big for record stores, and a lot of other people do it too.
Maybe even this is declining, but it seems popular to me when I’m out at those events and see the inventory turning over at record shops.
I have many non collectible records on my shelves. Most of them are orginal pressing in great condition, the music is fine…but they have no market. Who is interested by “Harry Geller’s New York” ? Or Jack Qyuigley’s trio on Sand ? I’d like to get rid of them, but i can’t imagine spending time to (not) sell them. Sometimes i realize i will evetually throw them away at the nearest garbage can. Not possible in reality.
Al,I think the thing to keep in mind is that anyone who pays 1-2k or for that matter 10k for a turntable is not going to that expense only to display a museum piece. The higher-ticket items go first because they just don’t come up that often(or if they do,it’s always the Jazz equivalent of “Shark Week”-a real feeding frenzy!) As always,the same hardware that makes my items available worldwide means I’m competing with that many more bidders when I choose to buy. The lesser-priced ‘software’ that is out there-on ebay or at your local garage sale- IS glutting the market to some extent. There are a lot of lps by the artists you mentioned available because there always WAS a lot of their stuff on the market(at times this even extended to Blue Note). When I first started ‘crate-diggin’ I kept finding Three Sounds,Jimmy Smith and Stanley Turrentine Night At Mintons lps constantly(and don’t get me started on Craig Hundley,Kay Starr or those RIVERSIDE ARTISTS PLAY THE MUSIC OF:Horace Silver,etc.lps!)Maybe you-like a few of us,perhaps-are sweating the ‘posterity thing’ a little too much. Here’s my vote for pulling some of those ‘minty’ lps off of your(my)shelf and setting aside a few hours to actually PLAY them this weekend. There’s a revolutionary idea!
Somehow,posterity always seems to take care of itself…
Agree 100%. The only market for this stuff is to the newbies looking to start a collection like I was 8 years ago. I didnt have anything, so spending a few bucks here or there, and buying in bulk from the same seller to save on shipping made sense.
Reality is though that there aren’t a lot of newbies entering this hobby so the bulk of good but mass-produced LPs will never sell. The available inventory of those records is staggering. Even moreso, Jazz in the 40s and 50s was the dominant form of popular music.
SInce I discovered your site,and reading reflections and comments on prices currently being paid for some records, I have often bewailed the fact of my having sold much of my “high price” items in the ’80’s for what then seemed like astronomical prices but were a mere pittance to current sums. However this liqidation also included many fine Jazz records that do not have this “cache” of being the right label and the right pressing minituae ad the right artist, etc.
And yes I agree that there are many fine records by artists that will never be collectable and will at some point grace landfill somewhere. Like King Fleming on Argo and any Count Basie record or Eddie Lockjaw Davis on such labels as RCA or Steeplechase. I am sure all of readers of these pages could add many artists to this list.
To me it was always and still is the music that drew me into the “land of Jazz,” monetary valuation came much later.
I really now have the records I truly love to listen to. If they are worth something at some point, fine. If not, well to paraphrase, “records will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no records.”
Al, as usual, I have a contrarian view of this. Many of my jazz records that I enjoy greatly I have purchased at thrift stores and at 92 cent record bins both in Los Angeles and in the San Francisco east bay where I live. I have also purchased many on ebay for $10 and under. When I want to get rid of records, I will generally trade them in for store credit at 2-3 different records store that specialize in jazz, or rent a table at a local record show for $50, and sell them for 50 cents each (they are always sell at that price.) The one exception to this is my jazz 10″: these are wonderful and and historical artifacts I will never part with. I really do enjoy exploring the jazz styles of artists I have never of. To me in my late stage in life (I will be 60 next year) I really want to explore jazz in the 50’s and 60’s to it’s fullest not sticking to a few labels. So, I guess what I am saying is that it’s not the money to me, it’s the pleasure of listening. Example from the 92 cent record bin from Record Surplus in Los Angeles: Yusef Lateef’s “Detroit Lattude 42 30 Longitude 83.” The tune: “That Lucky Old Sun”, from 1969. Is this a blue note? No….it’s on Atlantic. Is it a great album? Yes, definitely….You don’t have to spend a fortune to enjoy great jazz, but you won’t make a great fortune selling either……
I still think that a decent way to monetize non-EBAYable LPs is to donate them to a very worthy charity and get a nice appraisal for them. You can get a tax deduction that is simple to get and depending on the aggressiveness of the appraisal can get nice overal after-tax value to you (you get to treat the appraised value as a charitible contribution; there are some restrictions so please consult as appropriate). It is important to get a real appraisal for your donation, but assuming you do, it is a straightforward process to receive the deduction in your taxes. This strategy is completely in your control as you don’t need to find a buyer – your role is to find an appraisal. You can help a worthy charity at the same time, making this a win-win.
I think some of you have not grasped the real question: what is at stake is practical and very much down-to-earth, what to do with records you don’t want anymore and which you cannot sell on EBay? Thrift record stores don’t abound. When I go to one in Geneva, the owner refuses to take any additional material since he just cannot store it.
Unwanted records take a lot of space and your heirs will curse you to have amassed them.
As an idea, you could, when you are invited for dinner, instead of going down in your wine cellar to fetch a bottle of wine that you won’t drink yourself, take a vintage vinyl record as a gift. The gesture will sure be appreciated, but who has still got a turntable to play them? So it is no solution. I think it is unfair to pass on your unresolved problems to a charity.
So, the only solution is the dust bin.
Rudolf:
let me know when you start moving your collection to the dust bin!
I am sure quite a few treasures are there.
Completely off topic, but…
have you ever seen a NON DG copy of Soul Station ? Not me. This one seems to be. Look at the label picture.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/original-lp-blue-note-4031-soul-hank-mobley-art-blakey-wynton-kelly-chambers-/290622874963?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item43aa792553
This is really the first time i see a Non DG NY lbl variation of this Hank Mobley LP.
Hey,Rudolf-if you’re taking unwanted lps to your heirs when invited for dinner INSTEAD of a bottle of wine,I’ve got news for you. You don’t need to worry that
“your heirs will curse you” when you’re gone…they’re cursing you NOW! (lol)
ceedee: thanks,I cannot say I have not been warned.
on topic: heaven or hell I wanna take my records with me.
off topic: where’s the problem with Soul station?
original first pressing is W 63 inc, double deep groove.
this one is a later pressing, NY label and no deep groove, as many reissues.
Michel — it looks like a DG to me, based on the picture.
Rudolf – In New York City, there are numerous charities with associated thrift stores that sell LPs. And I believe it is a win win vs pushing a burden on them. I would think that if they saw it as a burden they wouldn’t accept the donations. It may not be a great solution in every jurisdiction, but in NYC this works. So is a garbage bin or just giving them away – I was trying to find a solution with some financial benefit to the owner of the LPs.
Looks like a non-DG pressing to me. Wonder how high will this go for?
Being a jazz seller here in Russia I can tell you a few things I’ve noticed.
First of all, it’s obvious that combos always sell better than orchestras, no matter if the buyer is a collector or a listener, no matter how great the orchestra is.
Secondly, there are some musicians that usually don’t sell, like organ trio’s (Jimmy Smith, Shirley Scott), flute records (Herbie Mann, Frank Wess, when he’s on flute), and surprisingly worse are sold drummers (Krupa, Bellson, even Blakey, though there are always incredible musicians in his team).
It’s clear to me, that it’s rather boring to listen for an organ solo for at least half an hour and a lot of Basie records look like the same one, devastating orchestra, loud, thick, with definite melodies, but there are a lot of treasuries inside. Who can tell me that owns an NM copy of an Ellington record called Indigos? It’s absolutely easy music and tremendously beautiful, I’ve had a few copies, and all of them showed signs of use, they were definitely listened to at the time.
Here’s another example. I’ve been having two copies of Stan Getz – Cool Velvet (Verve) for sale, they have minor problems and a nice price for an US original in my country. And though the music is so sweet (but not too sweet, that happens with Willis Jackson on the late Prestige recordings), so tender..And here’s again an orchestra-strings cliche..
My father started building his collection here with the records he was able to find with reasonable prices – and such were Basie records, Brubeck, Garner, issues on Pablo, Ellington, some MJQ..the ones you want to throw away – these were his music, his joy..And now, looking through his collection I find a lot of great records, that I wish to keep – Dexter Gordon on Black Lion, where he plays with a wonderful pianist Kenny Drew. This is not a hundred-more-dollars his record on Blue Note, and the recording is not made by Van Gelder, but the music is definitely not worse and may be even better, because contain some live recording, the sound is not bad, ’cause the years are only about 69-71..
Found some Paul Gonsalves’ records on Black Lion, when seeing out here what big prices fetched his Argo LP. I enjoy his Impulse recording, but on many Ellington lp’s he plays much better..
That’s why I want to say to you that the records you want to throw away can be a treasury for a man, who’s thousand of miles far from you. It means they are valuable, not in $ scence, but in a human, lifetime, music one..
Dottor Jazz, no problem here, ust to mention that this second press seems to be very rare. On 146 sales on Popsike, only one NY lbl NO DG.Personnaly, i’d ever seen it before.
disagree with Al: it looks like a non-DG.
dottor, have you seen this commonly reissued as NY label and NO DG? After Michel brought it up, I don’t’ know if I’ve seen it or not but after Michel brought it up I’m pretty sure I haven’t. It could be one of the more uncommon reissues.
being interested in original first pressing, I don’t pay much attention to reissues.
we know that liberty reissued older numbers with every kind of left over labels.
there are Lexington no dg as well as W63 or NY no dg.Sometimes you see deep groove on one side only. No edition like these is interesting for me.
I’m interested in variations of first pressing, where even Frederick Cohen has no certainties.
if anyone would like to download my latest edition of Blue Note illustrated, please click here:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RGG5M6UI
I’m always interested in receiving infos about records in purple (open discussion) as well as comments.
about popsike: useful but far from complete.
at least two of the records I bought on eBay have never been published, both are over $ 800, one is the top price.
just found this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kenny-Burrell-Introducing-Blue-Note-LP-NY-/120801085615?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item1c204e48af#ht_664wt_1106
Lexington, NO dg, cover NY
this is one of the many later reissues of a nice record.
Mobley fetched 348$, veeeery expensive re-issue, no matter rare or common…
Dottor, I don’t remember if I did this already but I definately wanted to complement your ebook. Very impressive.
JazzVinyl.ru,
I would be glad to send some records to you. For free. I have reocrds I don’t listen to anymore and a quadruple bypass in february has caused me to look at possessons differently. And living in FLorida, in an area barren of record stores,and weary of eBay, I’d be glad to give you some sounds. All playable, but not all in mint or near mint shape.
Combos mainly, for I have noticed,as you have,that so many seem to ignore big bands.
Oh well.
Anyway this is my email lennibukowski@Aol.com
If you let me know where you’re at, I’ll get some records off to you.
lenni
JazzVinyl.ru, where are you based? Am travelling frequently to R.F.
I’m in Moscow, though don’t have a shop or anything like that, can’t afford renting a place here..Do you have personal of work affairs in Russia?
personal. Please give your name and telephone number.
Roudolf Andrevitch
My name is Alexander, the phone number is +7(926)2630968