More Rare Jazz Vinyl, More High Prices
Here’s an update on some jazz vinyl auctions we’ve been watching on eBay, starting with: J.R. Monterose in Action, Studio 4 SS 100. This looked to be an original pressing listed in M- condition for both the record and the cover. This auction is saying that there were 250 copies of this record printed, although for some reason I recall an earlier posting with a 500 number. Regardless of 250 copies or 500 copies, there aren’t that many to be had, so this record often winds up in the $2,000 bin these days, as has this copy, logging in at a cool $2,215.
This is one I missed from the bobdjukic auction: Herbie Hancock, Maiden Voyage, Blue Note 4195. This looked to be an original pressing with the ear, NY USA address and RVG stamp. It was described as “monstrously” rare because it was a mono pressing. Anyway, I’m pointing it out because of the price, which was $821.21, way more than we’ve ever seen for this record in the Jazz Collector Price Guide. In fact, more than double the previous high. And you seem to want me to include these aberrations in the Price Guide? I guess I will, even though I don’t necessarily agree.
regarding the Insane bobdjukic auction,
please don’t include them in your guide…. they are freak and rather dubious prices. They don’t have relevance to the flow of the market at all…..
Agreed…..
The reason I don’t want to include them — they don’t really relate to real-world prices — at least real-world prices that anyone else can expect to see. What I don’t want is for sellers/dealers to see these prices and then expect that they can get them as well. I remember walking into record stores and sellers would have no idea on a record’s value but . . . they would pull out a Goldmine Price Guide and I knew I’d be screwed and wouldn’t buy the record, because so many of the prices would be so out of line with real market values. These things, such as the Jazz Collector Price Guide, can be a valuable tool, but they are only as valuable as the accuracy of the information they provide.
bobdjukic doesnt make sense – whatever way you look at it.
I actually think someone should alert eBay to bob – I have tried contacting them but they only give out a contact phone number which is expensive from Europe… perhaps USA? It does the collecting community no good if he turns out to be a fraud….
@ Tony: I don’t think contacting eBay regarding Bob would do any good. He has a 100% feedback rating from thousands of users. Although, there may be something ‘fraudulent’ about his description, it is up to the buyer to do the research (like of all us on here do). Even if he is using ‘shills’ to increase the bid, it is the foolishness of the buyer to be goated into paying an extremely high price. Which doesn’t seem to effect his feedback.
Don’t feel any need to defend Bob’s descriptions, but I do believe that clean, mono first pressings of the Herbie Hancock titles – but also the Wayne Shorter ones – are quite hard to find. AFAK these are the rarest titles of 4100 series. Took me years to find nice copies…
I’m gonna be brief cause I’m exhausted-too much sports watching this weekend,and the college finals are t-nite-but,Al,most longtime collectors have experienced the ‘goldmine’ syndrome,but your story actually suggests the answer.Too much? Don’t bid on the record. When enough people choose that as an option,those crazy prices will drop. Even bobdj will quickly grow tired of sitting on top of “monsterously rare” lps.
Now,goodnight-and for those watching,enjoy the game.
He’s clearly NOT a fraud. He has the records and he sells them and ships them. He’s not coercing anyone to pay for them. Give him some credit. He’s a salesman who has figured out how to get top dollar and satisfied customers, not always easy to do.
The goldmine syndrome happens to almost every record store out there. It’s inevitable. As for Bob, he’s a salesman that gets top dollar for his records. I can’t knock his technique, even though he does stretch the truth. People should always do their own research. By the way, my last ‘goldmine’ syndrome helped me land Hank Mobley – Workout (BLP 4080) for only $130!
I don’t necessarily like or justify all prices I see on Ebay, especially not those paid for Bob’s auctions, but when a record is rare, and not easy to find for many people, the price will go up no matter what, whether we think this price is justified or not, the value of anything on sale follows the offer and demand principle. A record is worth what people are willing to pay for it, and if the record is rare, and is in a near mint condition, it will get the attention of many, including other “dealers”, wealthy collectors, speculators, and even investment bankers who are always looking for a new opportunity! (I know about this because I live in Switzerland!).
I think Bob is behind an elaborate money laundering operation. Either that or shill bids are behind his high prices. His descriptions are inaccurate and misleading. All of which is fraudulent in my book.
Why else would someone pay 4x the market rate for an LP when you can buy a sealed NM copy from another seller for a third the price, as was the case with one of Bobs recent listings?
Boby seems to be drawing a lot of attention:
http://www.soulstrut.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/68209/#955312
http://s3.excoboard.com/exco/archive.php?ac=t&forumid=29211&date=08-08-2008&t=412515-1
And heres a pic of the man himself:
http://arnieg.smugmug.com/Memorabilia/Bob-Djukic-Ebay-Record-Dealer/8726996_7NNzZq#!i=577074250&k=GNKwQ
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOHN-COLTRANE-CANNONBALL-ADDERLEY-IN-CHICAGO-RARE-ORIG-60-MERCURY-STEREO-LP-NM-/350554155197?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item519ea7e8bd#ht_5160wt_956 He’s back with more auctions. Is this the same ‘In Chicago’ he sold last week?
Doesn’t appear to be, but will he strike gold twice?
I don’t see how he can be considered fraudulent. He’s just a very flashy salesman. He’s got substantial enough positive feedback that he makes his customers happy, and there is no evidence that “shill bids” are causing it. I can understand why someone would think that but I haven’t seen any evidence.
I don’t bid on his auctions because my instincts tell me that I won’t be satisfied. I have seen no evidence to show that anything is fraudulent though. Prices jump around, some people do better than others. That’s how a market works.
I just don’t like to see people livelihoods called into question without evidence. The way he sets up his auctions is very tacky, and the way he take advantage of the ambiguity of what is an “original” or not is sketchy. But in the end he is like a used car salesmen or personal injury attorney with obnoxious TV ads. I don’t like it, but there is nothing morally wrong about it.
agree with Mike F.
When you call something a first pressing that clearly isn’t, don’t you think that is morally wrong or fraudulent?
What is fraud exactly if not mis-representation?
And if you have shill bidding going on, how could you actually tell?
I don’t know how to tell if there is shill bidding, I know it happens but haven’t seen evidence personally(although I haven’t looked real hard).
The reason why he is not mis-representing is that the claim of first pressing or original pressing is not a fact. We are pretty confident in some of these things, but it is not a certainty. He then gives the bidder all of the information to determine whether it is or isn’t an original.
To me, the fact that he provides the objective info prevents the subjective claims from being fraudulent. If he believes that an item is an “impossibly rare first pressing”, I have no evidence to the contrary.
Anyone here a lawyer, I’m curious if my view is legally sound. Anyone here a philosophy person, it’s been quite a few years since my philosophy 101 class. I’m curious if ignorant subjective claims are considered amoral or just ignorant?
Mike, what about calling an LP an original 1961 Blue Note LP when it doesn’t have the P in the deadwax. We know for a fact that it isn’t original – yet bob continues to state it is original despite being informed of the facts… This is mis-leading. It is fraud and is actually against eBay rules. If only they would enforce them.
The first thing a liar does when caught lying is claim ignorance. It is no defence.
But has he been caught lying? I know that it needs a “p” to even be considered an original, and so does everyone here but does Bob know that? He’s been told that by people, but does he believe them? If a random person tells him on ebay his item is not original, yet there are a few bidders bidding on it like it is, who does he believe. Bob may not know as much about Blue Note(he’s not a jazz exclusive dealer) as he thinks he does, which would make him ignorant but not fraudulent. If a member tells ebay that someone is lying in an auction they probably don’t even understand what a deep groove is, or a “p” stamp. It’s probably someone is Bangalore who’s never heard Jazz in there life.
Tony, what I’m saying is that you and I both know some of his listing are claiming originals when they aren’t. That doesn’t mean that anybody knows/believes it. And I don’t expect Bob to take the time to listen to people tell him he’s wrong, when he is probably thinking to himself; “I’ve been doing this for 20+ years, I know what I’m talking about”.
And maybe he is fraudulent, but I’ve seen no proof so I personally just don’t like calling people frauds with only anecdotal evidence.
“Bobdj fathered my child and refuses to send child support!!!”
(ok,ok-I’ll stop. But it DOES seem like his ‘schtick’ is getting more of our attention than it deserves. Just my 2 cents..)
Mike wrote:
“But has he been caught lying? I know that it needs a “p” to even be considered an original, and so does everyone here but does Bob know that? ”
Well, if you look at his listing for mono Maiden Voyage (the one that sold for over $800) he clearly indicates that it has the “P”, and is an original first press. So I guess he is aware of its significance…
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item519e389246&item=350546858566&nma=true&pt=Music_on_Vinyl&rt=nc&si=56tgCLqz7hVeVElU4RW2g5BHIAk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_5998wt_882
Man, I don’t know how Bob does it withthose prices, but he’s actually a nice guy. I emailed him once when I had a problem w/a buyer who had also bought from him & he wrote me back w/some helpful advice. I wonder who these people are that bid insane prices on his records, though.
At least if you figure out that you’ve overpaid for something that is not original he has a 2week return policy.
Tony,
You are correct, but how does Bob define “original”? Clearly he is very loose about the definition. I think that the problem is what we are considering proof that he is deceiving the customer. I’m very conservative about what I would say proves it. He may not even thinks it’s that big of a deal, he may not be as concerned as we are. I just don’t think you can say, “He’s lying about things being original when he clearly knows that it is not a first pressing and not nearly as valuable as what someone is paying”. If you can say that, I understand your disgust. I just see Bob as your regular snake oil salesmen.
When I’m buying something, I feel the burden is on me to verify that it is what I want. I don’t expect the seller to be right in their listing, as long as they answer my questions and have a good return policy I’m okay with them. I ignore the Hyperbole(or find humor in it). I’m not in on Bob’s auctions because he tends to get top dollar, and I prefer to find bargains. But if something ever looks like a good deal, I won’t hesitate to research, ask questions, and bid. Because I’ve never heard or seen someone have a problem with returning anything, or people complain about consistent over-grading.
Mike, snake oil salesman are frauds too. If you were misled into believing something is original which is not, offering a return within two weeks is just more smoke and mirrors.
I see lots of folks did leave -ve votes for Bob, only to alter them later on. Pushed, cajoled and bribed into changing them no doubt.
Bob is a fraud.
Tony, you may be right. I just feel there is also a burden on the consumer to be educated. In US law there is, although I understand that the market is international(as are the blog readers), so US law might not mean to much. I wasn’t aware of the negative feedback that had been changed. I only saw the positive feedback, which made me think that he had a large satisfied consumer base. I still don’t have a problem with what he is doing, I still think of him as a snake oil/used car salesmen. Sleazy, tacky, and annoying, but I can’t prove he’s a fraud. Your further investigating is turning up more evidence, just not sure that it’s enough.
It’s definitely enough to keep me away from his auctions though.
I think that bob is at the opposite end of the scale compared to the more helpfull members of the collecting community such as jazzcollerctor.com, Fred Cohen, Londonjazzcollector, etc. etc. who are all very open and try and help the collector with factual, well-researched information. This bob fella is just out to get as much money off folks regardless of the facts.