A Tale of Two Blue Notes
Others saw this and pointed to it already, but I couldn’t let it pass without at least a mention: J. R. Monterose, Blue Note 1536. This was, alas, a reissue. A reissue that sold for $1,081. Clearly the buyer thinks he is getting an original pressing and will be quite disappointed. I’ve sold enough collectible jazz records on eBay to know that English is not the first language for many of the high-end buyers and when you underline words like “flat edge” and “deep groove” and you don’t call out that it is a reissue, then you are being purposefully obscure. I’m pretty sure the seller is a reader of Jazz Collector and perhaps he will make a strong argument that he was being aptly descriptive of the record. And maybe the buyer won’t complain. I know there are many people who believe that it is the buyer’s responsibility and in this case the seller uses the word “repressing” to describe the record. But if it was me, and I paid nearly $1,100 for a record, and I was waiting for it in the mail and I opened up the box and pulled out a reissue, I’d be might, mighty disappointed. And pretty angry. And I would demand a refund. Whereas if I purchased this record and opened it and pulled it out of the box I’d be quite pleased because it was no doubt an original pressing: Fats Navarro Memorial Album, Blue Note 5004. This was an original — a real original– 10-inch record in M- condition for the record and at least VG++ for the cover. What a beauty, and the seller took some nice pictures as well. It sold for $178.09. Which would you rather have: The Fats original or the J.R. reissue?
Yeah, good point about the fact that English is not all buyers’ first language. And comments like “I must be insane to let this thing go” or whatever might cause someone to read over the ultra-fine print.
Seller is clearly out for the fake-out.
Not sure if the seller amended the description, but it states in purple
“1956 USA LP REPRESSING on the BLUE NOTE label CATALOG# BLP-1536 MONO” and then below that… “ALSO SAYS EMI – CAPITOL TO BACK AS WELL.”
However the seller should have certainly provided better & correct information that the J.R. Monterose is a Classic Records reissue. A photo of the back cover should have been included.
Hmm…
The seller rather obviously described it in such a way to make buyers think it was original, while subtly including juuuust enough repress description to cover his/her behind. In my opinion, pushing past the bounds of puffery into unsavory territory. It’s like a not-funny real-world example of an ad on the Simpsons, where the pitch is “Each one is absolutely, one hundred percent guaranteed to increase in value!” before a voiceover quickly and quietly adds “Not a guarantee.”
The term “purposefully obscure” is completely the appropriate term to use for the J R Monterose auction in my opinion.
The seller was not disguising the fact that it was a re-pressing, but he wasn’t exactly singing it from the treetops either.
Is it a 1956 USA LP REPRESSING?
Or is it a later re-pressing of a record that was first pressed in 1956?
It’s all down to how one interprets the description
Oh,yeah..”“I must be insane to let this thing go”-I forgot about that remark. I guess “Crazy Eddie” has come back as a jazz dealer!(you youngsters out there,you can look it up)
And Al..you’re right,of course. The ethics of a sale should be as important as actually closing the deal. I may have had something in my eye that blinded me to the ethical side for a moment(“yeah,about 10 c-notes!”)
The “I must be insane to let this thing go” quote
is 100% to deceive, simple.
The seller is a bounder & a scoundrel and should be suitably thrashed!!….or at the very least give the buyer a full refund.
By the way, that Fats 10″ is lovely!
I agree with Drew, a photo of the back cover is key. I believe if one was made available, it may clearly indicate it’s a reissue.
I noticed that the majority of bidders had high feedback. I assume they are seasoned buyers and/or sellers.
Regardless of the what the listing indicates, buyers need to research and ask appropriate questions. I found an auction for Miles Davis – Collector’s Items where the seller scanned half of the front cover and the Side 1 label. I messaged the seller requesting full pics of the front and back and was told that his scanner wasn’t large enough to fit the entire sleeve. I’m not sure why a camera or cell phone couldn’t provide adequate pictures. Considering there is already one bid, I doubt I’ll receive any updated pics or the listing will be updated. I won’t be bidding.
Oh, for what it’s worth, I’d pick the Fats 10″ as well. 10″ Blue Notes are great.
HOLY SH!T it’s a Classic Records reissue??! I was trying to figure out why Al thought it was a reissue, cuz the labels in the pics looked pretty darn authentic, then I saw the comment about EMI-Capitol, then it clicked: it’s a f—in Classic Records reissue. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a costly error (be it intentional or not).
But that Fats Navarro is a beaut! I haven’t gotten into the ten-inch game yet but after following it a bit, it seems like there’s a lot of great deals out there!
Richard – yes, lots of very nice 10″ pressings out there, often overlooked. Clefs, Norgrans, and cored-vinyl Fantasies, oh my.
listing says no rvg or ear. also says Capitol in 1st part of description. how is this misleading?
could there people out there who spend 1k on a lp and dont know the basics of Blue Note collecting?
True Jack…totally missed that. But it’s kinda lame not saying anything about it being a Classic Records reissue and mentioning “flat edge” even though they replicated the flat edge with those. AND he didn’t take a photo of the back of the jacket, hmmm…deliberate or not? We’ll probably never know.
Yeah! Here’s another repress that almost hit the $1000.00 mark:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONNY-CLARK-Cool-Struttin-BLUE-NOTE-LP-1588-SUPERB-/390550294948?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=pgCaqTsiEZhMEkhJABE5Ie5M%252F8s%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
The seller of this one doesn’t mention REPRESSING or REPRESS and goes on to list attributes (rvg, van gelder, ear) I know some of you will argue “but it’s a NY press!” Well, it’s still a REPRESS! And has NO DEEP GROOVE so probably more of a LIBERTY press! To me an RE is exactly that – an RE! Is it the sellers or the buyers we should be examining?
Anyway if someone does know if that TRUE BLUE classic press is as good as that JR MONTROSE please hip me to it. far out!
zarabeth47: I think that Atomic records’ description is to the point. They say and show what the buyer can expect, an original Blue Note pressing with a NY label. No pretended first pressing or other things implied.
Rudolf: isn’t that what the other seller (monterose) clearly states? Even more so than the seller of the Clark lp? What the buyer can expect? It’s pretty much stated clear as the driven snow! I saw it the first day and read REPRESSING / CAPITOL EMI. etc etc. He did not “pretend” or “imply” it was a first press as you say. Or grade it like bobtheDJyoukick would of: VG++(+++) with water damage blah blah … We feel that the presentation blah blah sh!t sh!t sh!t ….. (check a recent liberty era/ non DG KENNY DREW- UNDERCURRENT with water damage that got $500+ recently – noone’s talkin’ about that here!) The JR seller is probably thinking “WHAT’s UP” for sure? Maybe he’ll do the right thing? We won’t know.
I do notice that the seller of the Clark record does not describe his lp as a REPRESS (wouldn’t that kill sales? kudos to the other seller right there!) and goes on further which attributes are there – just like the other seller? They do not say it’s probably a LIBERTY era pressed which it most surely is as there is no DG. They never state that it’s a REPRESS like the seller of the Montrose clearly does. Here’s the problem: DOESN’T IT COME DOWN TO THE BUYER’S KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT HE IS BUYING? I’ll ask it again: Is it the sellers or the buyers we should be examining?
I would never spend that much on a repress .. EVER! And why do people spend so much on represses anyway?
You may as well just buy a scorpio/modern repress or Japanese repress. It’s all the same – A REPRESS. A repress is a REPRESS is a REPRESS! I feel they have little monetary value.
I don’t want to talk about this anymore as my time on this site is limited! Does anyone know if the TRUE BLUE (tina brooks) classic records pressing sounds killer or should I buy a scorpio press(ick!?)
Regarding that copy of 1588 just posted, I think that listing’s totally legit. I think what happens when people bid high on Liberty pressings is that they want that original Rudy Van Gelder mastering, and with a rare and popular title like 1588, that can apparently cost a lot of $$ (I’ve seen other non-P Liberty pressing go for over $500).
But the more I look at the Monterose auction, the more I think that was some deceptive sh!t. If it’s a reissue there’s no need to draw attention to things like the Lexington address and the flat edge. He says “top” too, and
HIGH BIDDER WILL BE VERY HAPPY!
How about,
HIGH BIDDER WILL NOT BE VERY HAPPY!
lol smh
Very good post which addresses the Talmudic subtleties of caveat emptor. How about the schmuck who buys this at a high price. Does HE have the right to soft pedal the EMI? Legally, there is full disclosure and no rank amateur should be mindlessly coughing up big dough unless they take the time to read.
If a foreigner gets stuck ’cause they were “fooled…. like Al, I’d be pissed. But I’d be pissed at myself for not doing the homework.
The pharmaceutical industry mentions that birth control patches lead to strokes, but the accompanying visual shows no drool. Instead, there’s a hot successful guy about to make his move. Manipulation? Perhaps. But with full disclosure, it’s now on the buyer.
Nice provocative post.
Although I consider the seller to be a pretty dodgy geezer given the evidence and the manipulative lingo ..The “I must be insane to let this thing go” quote, lack of cover picture for the rear, etc etc
I think the buyer is a complete TIT for not doing the home work. When we originally started the thread on this the bidding stood at a gobsmacking $580, (at this point I even bored my wife to tears following her around the house relaying the reissue story whilst thrusting the laptop at her) I had assumed that was the ceiling that everyone had twigged it was a reissue, maybe an email or 2 to the seller from the highest bidder to retract the bid and explain he had thought it original… but no it just kept rising. This was a bidding ‘war’ between 8 bidders!! so not just one sucker but a number of suckers!! all but 1 bidder has high ebay usage indeed one bidder has 64569 transactions on ebay!! so not newbies at this at all.
NO excuse, do your home work. As i said previously
more Corn than sense. Maybe a refund is not in order. Maybe huge corn shedding ignorance is
exempt from sympathy and refunds …
“The pharmaceutical industry mentions that birth control patches lead to strokes, but the accompanying visual shows no drool. Instead, there’s a hot successful guy about to make his move. Manipulation? Perhaps.”-Dan A.
Now my head is REALLY spinning(lol). A great,insightful,literate post that does what ALL of what is written here should encourage us to do…spin more music(and hopefully catch some live at the Vanguard this week). A great prescription for clearing one’s head…
Wow! That label looks real, but $1,000 for a 90’s? reissue? am I correct on the date? I don’t care what anyone on this page says, that listing is fraud. In My opinion, the seller clearly knows what he’s doing, he purposely is deceiving the easily deceived. Yes he caught some big bidding fish, and it is buyer beware I know, but it still does not not absolve that seller of wrong doing. Very clever indeed the wording, it’s really pissed me off.
Disclosure is a slippery slope, Jason. “Hi, I’m George. I’m unemployed and live with my parents” is a great sitcom premise, but removed from reality. After Wynton Marsalis, every jazz record label found a 19 year old trumpeter, put a suit on him, and the editorial caption read “The Next Miles.”
Hyping jazz records on ebay is NOT labeling gas chambers as showers. There are no ebay dogs, ebay transport trains, nor ebay guards with machine guns. The record ad is legal, clear to anyone with knowledge and discern. And though it soft pedals the truth, it’s no less honest than a push-up brassiere.
Dan Axelrod…The gas chamber thing!! Blimey!
But hell Yes, I have real issues with push up Bras,they really do create a cracking illusion but alas little real substance.
I have made one deal last year with this Monterose seller through Ebay and my conclusion after this experience is : do not buy from him and do not sell to him.
While I do believe the onus is on the buyer to know what he’s buying, the difference between the Monterose seller and Atomic Records presentation of the Clark re-issue is night and day.
I am disappointed in this Atomic offer:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BILL-EVANS-Portrait-In-Jazz-RIVERSIDE-Mono-DG-LP-SUPERB-/380587712570?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item589ccba03a
which they call original; the original “Portrait” is small label and no Inc – I wrote Atomic to tell them so; I hope they will make the appropriate change. Atomic has always been one of the most reliable sellers out there.
I’m not a big fan of most reissues, but I happen to like push-up bras.
Touchy – A re-issue is a re-issue. Plain and simple – a re-issue -after the fact repressed. Anywhere you throw it, it lands somewhere and it’s a re-issue. Upside down, right side up. It’s still a reissue. Put some dog food on it and feed him – it’s a re-issue. Take it to your friends’s house – it remains a re-issue. Try to trade it at your local lp shop: it’s DEFINITELY a re-issue there! Yep, there’s only one original! All the others are RE-ISSUES people! They should be like $15-$30 bucks monetarily.
As far as the seller of the Clark record: it’s just as deceptive to not state anything regarding the lp being a re-issued lp. He even states his usual subjective metaphors: “SUPERB!” etc etc … – which I have bought a “SUPERB!” lp from him and to my disappointment was a nice VG+. An $80 “DG” “MONO” “SUPERB!” ROUND MIDNIGHT – MILES. Turn around: I have bought a $25 VG record from the other seller and had it dead on VG+ or even a ++. I guess it just shows how long I’ve been buying records on ebay. Maybe it’s time to stop buying. I’ll still buy from both but I still only buy what I want. Is that the key to all conversation here? Buy what you want?
STILL – does anyone have any info as to the classic records press of TINA BROOKS – TRUE BLUE or should I just buy a JAPANESE or MODERN REPRESS? Also – I like push up bras as well AND have found real substance in them!
I don’t like gas chambers however.
zarabeth: totally disagree with your sentiment that it’s deceptive to not spell out that it’s NOT an original…really?? To me, it’s quite the opposite, that you should ONLY indicate that a copy is an original in the event that it is.
This is not to mention that your argument regarding the definition of an original assumes that there’s always a clear line separating originals from reissues. I used to be in this camp but have been through the ringer on this topic and am now of the opinion that there are many, many instances in which “original” is difficult to define.
While I do believe the anus is on the buyer…..
Earl–Are you implying EVERY reissue buyer is an asshole? How about a Bergenfield pressing?
Buyers without any professionel knowledge get what they deserve.It is the right punishment for ignorance Please stay away from EBay ifyou don’t know what you are looking for!
“While I do believe the anus is on the buyer…..” I guess if he wrote ANUS that’s exactly what Earl meant. Fortunately,he wrote onus. Hopefully,I’m not making an ass of myself…
‘Hey Kingfish….where IZ dat onus? Between da monterose and da fickle sonance?
Analogue Productions (Acoustic Sounds) Music Matters, Classic Records, and a few others have done a fantastic job with their Blue Note reissues in regards to sound quality.
Acoustic Sound’s owner bought out Classic Records some time ago. So I’m sure sooner or later there will be another round of re-issues of Blue Note titles in 33rpm for those who rather avoid the extra work of 45rpm editions.
If you’re after the Blue Note trademark sound, perhaps sticking with the original Blue Note label pressings are the way to go. Trouble is finding honest M/M- records. Too often, visually graded records are no indication of how the record will sound. Groove wear is common because how many people really took the time to maintain their record player’s cartridge/stylus.
Buying vintage records is a gamble and just like gambling… sometimes you win, sometimes you win big, but most of the time you lose. Losing big time hurts the most.
Sellers should be factual and to the point. If a Seller doesn’t exactly know enough about the product they are selling they should disclose that information.
However… the buyer should be aware of what they are bidding on because there are plenty of people wanting to cash in on the “vinyl revival”. Just like anything collectible, what goes up will come down. Just ask those who collect art or even sports memorabilia. Fads come and go…
Originals of course will always be amazing to own regardless of how much $$$ you can get for them on Ebay. Would people still appreciate Blue Note Jazz if the records were selling for pennies ???
Enjoy and appreciate the music !!!
Being a pediatric surgeon, a missing anus is very important to me. I guarantee.
“Would people still appreciate Blue Note Jazz if the records were selling for pennies ???”-Drew
Unfortunately,not enough people appreciated them when that’s EXACTLY what they cost.$5.98 to be exact. (“No further questions,your honor”)
Hi Guys, i’d like to see your comments on the following listing:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Soul-Station-HANK-MOBLEY-Nice-Original-BLUE-NOTE-Mono-JAZZ-In-Shrink-ART-BLAKEY-/300870950578?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item460d4e5eb2
Yep, out of focus pictures with no option to zoom in(not that you would see anything anyway).
If you go through this guys other listing, most of them seem to be out of focus, with no option to zoom in. Seriously, how hard is it to take an in focus picture!
Also note he is saying that it has “Original Deep W 63rd St Label”
Not “Deep Groove” but just the word “Deep”. So what does this infer?
So as a buyer, naturally, I should be asking questions here of course.
So are the photo’s out of focus on purpose? Is there no zoom option on purpose? Has the word “Groove” been missed out on purpose?
Am I just being picky?
Is there anything untoward here in your opinion, or is it just a case of an innocent seller doing the best he can with his listing?
Point taken that he has great feedback considering the amount of transactions he has done on Ebay.
Mike: you should know that early Blue Notes never came in shrink.
Thanks for that Rudolf; I hadn’t even considered that.
ceedee, hopefully you and others did not take offense to my post, as none was meant. Not sure what you are getting at with(“No further questions,your honor”).Just taking part in the discussion regarding Blue Note and todays collectible vinyl market. Unfortunately demeanor or tone can’t be conveyed properly via internet posting. More often misinterpreted
1950’s-60’s was a different time in America than today. Blue Note promoting an alternative lifestyle as well as music. however no history lesson needed…
Just not sure original Blue Note records are valued in todays market for what is contained within it’s grooves or merely a status symbol. The music itself is available for everyone to enjoy via reissues.
Lots of great jazz records out there looking for a good home but will eventually wind up in the trash because they aren’t considered valuable in terms of dollars.
I’ve always appreciated JazzCollector for it’s wealth of knowledge, great stories/articles, and for introducing me to records that have flown under my radar. Music has always been a passion.
“…Trouble is finding honest M/M- records. Too often, visually graded records are no indication of how the record will sound. Groove wear is common because how many people really took the time to maintain their record player’s cartridge/stylus.
Buying vintage records is a gamble and just like gambling… sometimes you win, sometimes you win big, but most of the time you lose.”
.
THANK YOU! Seriously, I’ve been waiting for someone else to mention this before I came out of my shell. People seem to think that RVG-mastered records ALWAYS “sound better than they look”. This may be true with respect to surface noise, but when you consider distortion from groove wear it’s actually the exact opposite. I estimate that at least half of the Blue Note originals I have won on ebay, graded from VG all the way up to VG++, have had some amount of distortion from groove wear. As wonderful as Van Gelder’s mastering work is and as high as the signal-to-noise ratio is typically, this came at a price.
.
Because he pushed the levels so hard when cutting lacquers, the amplitude of the grooves on his masters are very wide when compared to more moderate masterings. Although this does wonders for the signal-to-noise ratio, it technically makes it more difficult for the stylus to track the groove accurately, ESPECIALLY when the groove starts to wear, as it has on many, many Blue Note originals by now. See for yourself: though masterings of records in less-than-perfect condition from other labels during this time period usually have a lot more surface noise than an RVG record, distortion from groove wear is much less likely.
.
I will be publishing an article on this topic, titled “My Love-hate Relationship with RVG Mastering” on my up-and-coming blog, Deep Groove Mono. Stay tuned, space cadets =)
The Evans Portrait mentioned above sold for $546, My note to Atomic about the fact that this large label with Inc was a second pressing went unanswered. Although the condition was quite good (NM/Ex+ for the vinyl, Ex cover), I continue to be mystified that buyers (and apparently sellers, at least in this cased in this case) don’t appear to care about the subtleties of label characteristics and resultant originality or lack thereof.
It seems the consensus is, the listing is legal, if not entirely honest. I still would have a hard time believing Paypal or eBay wouldn’t side with the buyer on a complaint, it just smells bad to me, the word games. Had the buyer been a regular visitor to Jazz Collector, perhaps they would have known better.
I’ve encountered the dreaded worn grooves on older mono BNs as well. It’s unfortunate, because they may otherwise be decent enough, keepable copies… hence most of mine now are Liberty/NY era or Japanese pressings…
I don’t have a problem with the Liberty pressings, I like the 70’s label reissues quite a bit. The mid 90’s Connoisseur’s series I think are decent too.
to: DG Mono (Richard Connerton)
zarabeth: “you should ONLY indicate that a copy is an original in the event that it is.”
OK, first of all maybe the word “deceptive” was way too much as that seller is still someone I fairly trust and buy from occasionally. I just have to say to myself “one grade” or “1/2 a grade” down from what he lists if I bid. This is waht I call CONSERVATIVE BUYING btw which is sometimes bad as I bid lower accordingly and voila! LOSE AGAIN!!!! I used that word as we were discussing the seller’s responsibility and meant no nastiness towards him. My apologies to everyone and myself as I re-read it and it didn’t come out like I meant it.
BUT according to your quote above – that seller also listed the BILL EVANS – PORTRAIT as AN ORIGINAL and was wrong according to EARL. I have been collecting BILL EVANS lately and try to bid a reasonable amount at the last minute but I was out pretty early on that one! Fini!
DREW: thanks for some info on the CLASSIC RECORDS lps – Someone pasted the link to the available presses by that company and I’m drooling! Do you know in particular about the TINA BROOKS?
In closing I believe there is a good place, obviously on my budget, for re-issues. I just think that they are not worth much. $900+ for a re-issued Cool Struttin’? That is one of the most re-issued lps ever imho! You see it everywhere.
Manyana folk
Hi all!
As been mentioned here before collecting isn’t alla about the music and I don’t think it will ever be. Originals are originals no matter how you look at it.It’s a piece of history.
Interesting remark about the RVG hot masters that can make groove wear more prominent. It really makes sense. I’ve noticed that too but never made the connection. Well thought out! It would be grat if someone had found a needle cutting type that gave less groove wear than others. Any tips?
Well made reissues are bound to cost more in the future IMO. But there are different schools about reissuing too. One one hand make the item look and sound as close to the original that is almost deceptive to the buyer – i.e. Classic records and the Monterose. On the other hand you can do like Music Matters and just make the best sounding product possible but it can hardly be mixed up with an original and MM ignores the mono sound which many BN collectors love and pay premium for.
So what kind of reissue do you think will be most sought after in the future. I know what I would bet on….
Whilst I really enjoy long discussions about Originals v reissues and Deep Grooves and stamps in dead wax I would appreciate your views on to push up or not to push up?
http://www.wonderbra.eu/uk/page/home/?gclid=CL6W36rd57UCFW_KtAod9C8ASg
I think they are totally misleading and can cause genuine disappointment !
Thoughts
ADAMSKI – I’m sure you can find some other forum for that particular brazerial-interest 😉
That said I can see a connection between a seller “pushing up” an LP only for us to find something else when we get inside the LP cover….That’s “life” as Frank S would sing about 😉
Drew,no offense meant(!?) I simply mean that when these records we lust after cost(essentially) pennies,they were far less appreciated than they are today-making todays market the inevitable outcome. Dig?
SHAFT – Yes point taken, it’s been quite a thread on this topic, what with Gas Chamber and brazerial references. I was in my listening chair with the cans on last night enjoying my Hanks 1568 & 1560 which are both magical records to me and both very nice sounding Jap reissues. The Classic Records reissues look very nice products and i’m itching to buy a few, but when I pull it out of the rack I will always have that reissue feeling…. I love holding a part of modern History in my hands, I suppose thats what I crave as much as the music…and bras 😉