A Tale of Two Blue Notes
Others saw this and pointed to it already, but I couldn’t let it pass without at least a mention: J. R. Monterose, Blue Note 1536. This was, alas, a reissue. A reissue that sold for $1,081. Clearly the buyer thinks he is getting an original pressing and will be quite disappointed. I’ve sold enough collectible jazz records on eBay to know that English is not the first language for many of the high-end buyers and when you underline words like “flat edge” and “deep groove” and you don’t call out that it is a reissue, then you are being purposefully obscure. I’m pretty sure the seller is a reader of Jazz Collector and perhaps he will make a strong argument that he was being aptly descriptive of the record. And maybe the buyer won’t complain. I know there are many people who believe that it is the buyer’s responsibility and in this case the seller uses the word “repressing” to describe the record. But if it was me, and I paid nearly $1,100 for a record, and I was waiting for it in the mail and I opened up the box and pulled out a reissue, I’d be might, mighty disappointed. And pretty angry. And I would demand a refund. Whereas if I purchased this record and opened it and pulled it out of the box I’d be quite pleased because it was no doubt an original pressing: Fats Navarro Memorial Album, Blue Note 5004. This was an original — a real original– 10-inch record in M- condition for the record and at least VG++ for the cover. What a beauty, and the seller took some nice pictures as well. It sold for $178.09. Which would you rather have: The Fats original or the J.R. reissue?
Adamski- point taken and I know the feeling. That Japaneese reissue feeling is less and less compelling for me somehow. I mean it’s nice but I’d rather take a nice Liberty than a Jap. No matter if the SQ is great on the Jap.
The new kid weiging in here –
First, while I don’t know if Classic Records has moved physically, I’m aware they were bought out by Acoustic Sounds some time back. I imagine everone knows this, but the relevance to me is that AS is in Salina, which is about an hour down the interstate from me. It’s a rarity, but some of their pressings do show up in thrift stores around here, which is how I acquired a record by Little Hatch, a local blues artist.
About originals vs reissues. Sure, for many collectors owning an original has great meaning well beyond the music itself and I can certainly understand that. Were I a person of means, I’d stack my shelves with high-dollar first pressings. But I’m not a person of means.
I do understand a bit of why anything sought after can command a high price – rarity + popularity can drive prices sky high. I imagine those factors will come into play just as heavily for reissues one day. Though as Trader John once said, “anything that is marketed as a collector’s item really isn’t.” Only an original is an original, after all.
So I don’t know what reissues will be highly collectible in the future, but it does seem many labels have already garnered more respect than others. My guess is, when it comes to reissues, if the label’s sought after today, it will be sought after tomorrow too. As I’ve got the cash, my occasional treat will be to buy something in the $20-$25 range, something that gets to be played for the very first time by little ‘ol me.
In any event, I try to be content with my lot in life. Normally, I can’t afford to put much money into any one title. if I did, I would be in a big ol’ room full of empty shelves, listening to my one Blue Note over and over.
I love having a large enough library of records I’ve yet to clean and play, that if I suddenly learn about an artist I can go pull what I have, clean them up and give them a spin.
Sure that means under “R” the only Sonny Rollins I have is Don’t Ask but it’s Sonny, I own it, I’ve played it, so I’ve got some sense of the artist. Under E, there’s that repress of Waltz For Debby and a pretty beat up copy of Undercurrents, but again I’ve been able to listen to them and gain some appreciation for the artist.
I guess the takeaway here is that if I did have the money to develop any meaningful collection of originals, I’d focus on my good fortune. If I bid on something and lost (and bid on something the nest day and lost too) I’d turn away from the screen, look at my shelves, pull out one of my treasures and listen to it.
Because while there would always be people who are better off than I, there are those so much less fortunate. The guys who have little choice but to buy records in thrift stores for instance. And if they can find happiness in the music they have, well I can find happiness in mine too.
Because to me, much as owning a piece of history has great appeal (and I do own a few bits), listening to good music, learning about great artists is what it’s really all about.
re:Honesty in selling-this is how Fred begins his description of a new listing,here describing Coltrane’s lp-“This is the deep-groove second pressing of John Coltrane “Giant Steps” on red and purple pinwheel labels of Atlantic 1311.”
Thank you,Fred.
Speaking of reissues, has anyone tried the Japanese Disk Union Blue Note deep groove series pressed on 200gm flat edged vinyl ?
I just don’t get it. The seller absolute clearly stated, that the record is a modern reissue. Bold, blue letters.
It’s his right to make some advertising as well.
If I am the buyer, I can always ask questions to clarify and if I buy a record and I don’t read the description, I gotta be some kind of stupid. He in no way deserves a money back guarantee.
Buyers, do your friggin’ homework, as we’ve all done!
speaking of things that make no sense.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOU-DONALDSON-THE-NATURAL-SOUL-BLUE-NOTE-vinyl-LP-w-GRANT-GREEN-NM-/160982533917?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item257b4e871d
Katharsis: totally agree.
Some time ago a reputable seller in the Mid-West had a Blue Note for sale. Full description given on EBay, I missed one thing though: ears. So I asked the seller for details. I got a laconic reply: if the record would have had ears, we would have given this information. Fair enough, this is a business like approach, direct, no nonsense.
Jim Neal-thanks 4 your insight. It helps to remember that most struggle to find money for their mortgage,even as others drop that same amount every other week or so for records. As an old expression goes,”it’s a sin and a shame’. What really caught my eye was the image of a near- empty ‘R’ section with only one Sonny lp. And that one being Don’t Ask. Not a Liberty NIGHT AT THE VANGUARD or even the 2-fer from the 70’s of the same sessions-just Don’t Ask. I-I-I have to stop now;it’s just too hard to see the keyboard though my tears!
ceedee – Dry your eyes, my friend. Remember one cannot really miss something he never had. With some 6,000 titles obviously I do have other titles under “R”, but when it comes to the big jazz names often mentioned here, the one disk by Mr. Rollins is the only one that came to mind.
ceedee – not that it’s going to get me a lot of street cred, but moving down from the Rs to the Ss, I did see Sonny Stitt – Stitt’s Bits (Prestige 7133). Not in the best of shape, but playable I suppose. Maybe I was just buying anybody named Sonny that day . . .
Jim Neal-hey man,you’ve already contributed enuff cogent commentary here to earn you enuff ‘cred’ to last through the next Clinton administration!(lol)
And anyone who’s collected 6,000 of ANYTHING is ok with me..(well,maybe not beanie babies,but that’s just me).
ceedee – thanks, but I know I tend to get a little wordy at times. I do worry a bit that every time a mention an album I have here, I note it’s not in very good condition. Not every album I own is so far down the goldmine you can’t see daylight, but it’s a fact that when you get to the ones serious jazz collectors look for, what I’ve found for the most part is pretty sad.
But I can’t help it, I see something by this guy named Byrd, or this other guy with the nickname “Lockjaw” and I just grab it. And yeah, “Sonny” seems to show up a lot too.
John, Sorry though the Sonny you’re looking for certainly isn’t on MY shelf!
Jim: you should have more sonny (rollins) in your collection. First the blue notes. Look on ebay for early 70s/late 70s (solid blue liberty labels) and you can get them at auction for $10-$25 depending on condition & good ‘ol luck. If you know you’re BN labels you can even get a nice DIVISION OF LIBERTY (classic blue & white labels) for probably the same price on a good day if you’re lucky. I would recommend NEWK’s TIME to start or AT THE VILLAGE VANGUARD. Essential jazz she-at. If you love jazz these are must haves! The Prestige stuff is great as well. Those are easily found too as re-issues on blue “trident” Prestige labels or maybe purple labels(they changed the covers and titles at that point so you gotta know what is what) and also the green labels. The OJC/FANTASY presses are good too. The later ones are digital so watch out there(earlier OJC lps have a thick cardboard jacket and not flimsy posterboard.) Heck any modern $11 re-issue will suffice just to hear the stuff. Gotta have your Rollins baby!
Jim: also – If sound is important (it should be as we listen to VINYL!) the solid blue BN lps are hit and miss in the sound dept. They usally are real compressed at the top end and the highs are rolled off so the drums seem to be missing most of the time. This also makes the low end a little loose too. Mids are smooth. Too smooth! Some I own sound passable though. If you don’t have the big bucks try those. I try to buy the real thing as I know the sound is incredible! I just have to get lucky as I have a daughter in college and bucks are super tight right now.
The public didn’t realize the sound of those originals (the phonographs back then couldn’t reproduce what Rudy was crankin’ out until much later when the gear gods made way better playback machines and guys like us figured it out! INCREDIBLE SOUNDING RECORDS MAN! That’s why we likey originals! THE SOUND!
If the stamper are overused the sound goes soft as zarabeth47 descibes it. But I must say that a “original” reissue on Liberty labels can sound very decent and should be picked up if there is no original in sight. Original BNs have a very exciting sound with lots of bite an dynamics – waych out for that groove wear though!
zarabeth47: Thanks for the insight. It’s one of the main reasons I watch postings here – to learn. If by “solid BN” you’re talking more recent releases that have a thumb print on them, I do have several of those, but always assumed whomever at the time had the rights to the Blue Note name was simply capitalizing on it. That said, there are a coupld of Robert Cray’s on the shelf that I find enjoyable. Better overall sound than most of that era? OK. Better than a CTI? Nope.
I do find myself exploring particular artists, comparing what they did early in their careers to what they put out later on. This is a little easier for me with some of the artists I’m exploring now, as their stuff is fairly easy to come by.
For example, the past few days I’ve been recording my collection of Grover Washington, Jr. and while the earliest I’ve got is a Motown re-issue of a Verve title (If Creed and Rudy were involved I pick it up no matter what – learned that lesson first time I tracked one of their collaborations), the difference between “Feels So Good” and “Winelight” is striking, whether you’re talking the music laid down or the way it was produced. I know, Grover Washington Jr. is hardly Sonny Rollins, but I find his stuff pleasant and more importantly, so does my wife.
The stages GWJ went through reminds me of G.Benson, who does know his way around a guitar, but other than the Carnegie Hall album, everything else I own is pretty much pop and not particularly interesting to me.
Anyway, this is why when I mention I’ve only got one record by a particularly well respected artist and that it’s a more recent production, I say I “have a sense” of the artist, my way of saying I can tell there’s more to them than what I’ve experienced so far and that chances are the further back I go, the more I’m going to appreciate them.
A little more about why my collecting seems to focus on quantity over quality (I’m guessing that’s how it’s perceived – ceedee’s probably crying again at the thought of me suffering through GWJ because I only have one Sonny Rollins.
Back in the 70’s right out of college, which I never did finish, I made my living in radio and at night did much the same in discos. So during the day, 4-hour shifts playing the same 40 records over and over and over, and at night, same thing, different records, longer cuts, even smaller selection. Man, we cued those suckers up so many times the first few seconds sounded like a far away AM radio station – more static than music!
So today, while I do have albums that are favorites and get played fairly frequently, I instinctively keep myself out of that kind of music loop.
I mean, to this day, while I still love Donna Summer (stop laughing now), every time I hear “Last Dance” I think, as she said, “Last Chance For Romance.” because it was always the closing song.
Drink your drink, make your last move, if it don’t work out, we don’t care – time to get out now, because we’re gonna close the door now.
See ya, and GOOD NIGHT!
Andy: That Lou Donaldson does make no sense, mainly because there’s only one photo, it’s stereo, and there’s no description. That record COULD be 100 bucks near mint (as just about any Blue Note original could), but why would you bid that much for a record when you don’t know what you’re getting? AND…THERE’S NO RETURNS??!! wooow that final value is craaazy
Rudolf: I am in 100% agreement that if a copy doesn’t have the “P” (ear), the seller is not obligated to mention that the record does NOT have it.
“If the stamper are overused the sound goes soft as zarabeth47 descibes it. But I must say that a “original” reissue on Liberty labels can sound very decent and should be picked up if there is no original in sight. Original BNs have a very exciting sound with lots of bite an dynamics – waych out for that groove wear though!”
We think alike, Shaft! 🙂
Andy & DG Mono: about Donaldson record
because you can ask a seller to send you some info..i wanted to put a bid on this one, because the seller told it was a new york press, with (r), no quite sure about the groove. and seeing the nice cover i wanted to make a 30 bucks bid, but the price went up, so i decided no to take risks..
a bid war can be clearly seen on that one, that explains the price..
if speaking on the main topic, I agree with the guys, who are against such way of selling records. a seller myself, I know that this obvious misleading works, even Al thought it was an original, when writing about it in a previous post. I was fooled also, this capitol/emi thing isn’t that obvious, even the word repress is hidden..I just didn’t like the cover – modern issues are digitally printed and the colours are quite different – black is much deeper, creating a much more contrast in b&w area of the picture..
RE:zarabeth47
I have the following Tina Brooks reissues.
True Blue: BST-4041(MMBST-84041 Music Matters stereo reissue)
True Blue: BLP-4041 (BN-4041 Classic Records mono reissue)
Back To The Tracks: BST-840 (MMBST-84052 Music Matters stereo reissue)
Back To The Tracks: BLP-4052 (BN-4052 Classic Records mono reissue)
I do not have any Japanese reissues of these titles because they were not mono, which is what I was after at the time.
The mono reissues from Classic Records and stereo reissues from Music Matters are excellent. Both companies worked from the original masters, which is important to me. Music Matters re-issues certain Blue Note titles in mono and others in stereo. Don’t be afraid to try stereo titles from this company because they put out a great product. Classic records is about staying closer to the original Blue Note house sound. Music Matters offers a different take by bringing the musicians into your home. Both are great to have in my opinion.
I tend to look for original Blue Notes and other labels that fetch big money closer to home, in person. I’m first and foremost a music lover… Jazz, Blues, Classic Rock, Soul… so if a record is scratched or in rough shape I can decide whether it will be a memento or one for the collection, and pay accordingly.
It would be nice if we could all own minty original copies of every record we desire, however that’s not a reality. Some reissues are a wise choice.
RE:zarabeth47
Oh, and I should also mention. Only certain Classic Records reissues fetch big money like the Led Zeppelin titles and Clarity Vinyl boxsets.
Both of those Tina Brooks titles from Classic Records can be owned for $35 +/-
Just want to add, the mono Classic Records Tina Brooks “Back To The Tracks” is excellent and can be had in the $25-$35 range but the Classic Records “True Blue” is commanding around $100 at the moment.
Yes & No, just depends. On Ebay you can find the Classic Records version in mint condition in the +/- $35 range. Sealed $50 and up if you are patient. Plus there are other sources if you know where to look. When Classic Records went out of business titles sky-rocketed in price. Then came back down after a bunch of stock was “found”.
I’m sure this title will be reissued again in a 33rpm format by Acoustic Sounds at some point. QRP has been up and running for some time & their version will be even better. The 45 rpm reissues are great but there is a big demand for 33rpm. Their 33rpm Prestige reissue series is top notch in every way. They are even bringing back Clarity Vinyl & UHQR. I think it’s a safe bet good things are coming in the reissue market.
On the other hand Music Matter’s version of True Blue is running in the steady $100 range as it was limited to 2500 copies. But I’m sure mint used copies can be found for less. Audiophiles tend to buy lots of stuff (guilty), play it once and put it on the shelf. Then sell it when the next best version is released.
Tina Brooks complete discography on BN is available on a 4-disc Mosaic release, & of course includes True Blue. It comes up on eBay reasonably often at about $100-150 I think. I’ve always believed that the Mosaic reproductions are pretty much unbeatable. Any thoughts on this?
another great advertising and buyers, doing their homework
http://www.ebay.com/itm/THELONIOUS-MONK-SONNY-ROLLINS-BRILLIANT-CORNERS-ORIG-59-RIVERSIDE-STEREO-LP-/221198161043?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item3380701493
how about true original first press in stereo of a record, recorded in 56?
yeah, i know, it has a deep groove, no inc..and maybe it’s rare, because no adequate person would want rechanneled stereo, when there is highly collectible mono original and less collectible deep groove reissues..
Regarding this MOnterose record, the intent of misleading people is, in my opinion, obvious. For one reason : the guy did nor remove the record and cover out of plastic sleeve to take picture. Probably because the record has a fresh looking cover. Moreover, He took picture only of elements that should make someone think that it is an original.
The buyer of that leaves a TON of negative feedback for jazz record sellers:
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=2008soolynn&ftab=FeedbackLeftForOthers
It looks like he hasn’t received this one yet!
DREW & AARON – Thank you! I had a $100 Amazone(sicop)gift card for the birthday from me mum! Acoustic Sounds sells on the site. They were out of the TRUE BLUE. I did buy CLASSIC RECORD pressings of: FREDDIE HUBBARD – OPEN SESAME / LEE MORGAN – VOL 3 & DIZZY REECE – SOUNDIN’ OFF. Man! They sound great! So many thanks!
EARL – I owned a few MOSAIC tiles but they sounded digital to me? I’m not a technical expert on all things pressed so school me please?
THANKS!
Music Matters 45 RPM re-issues
I am a big fan of these re-issues. Every one I own (now counting over 70) is better sounding that the original Blue Notes in my experience. And the covers are to die for! So much so that I have been selling off my originals and replacing them with the MM 45s.
If you like collecting originals for the hobby then good, but if its sound quality you are after the re-issues have it won.