Aberration is in the Eye of the Beholder
Since everyone is getting so worked up over the prices of some of the latest auctions, I decided to take a look at all of the recent completed listings from the bobdjukic sales to get an overall sense of things. There are definitely some aberrations between what we expect to see in the market, and some that fit in just fine with market expectation. Just for fun, I’ll pull out a few more of the aberrations.
Sonny Rollins, What’s New, RCA 2572. I love this record, but I’ve never really looked at it as a collectible. I have several copies, in fact. This was a promo copy in M- condition for the record and VG++ for the cover. It sold for $161.50.
Horace Silver, Song For My Father, Blue Note 84185. This is a stereo pressing. It was listed in VG++ condition for the record and probably VG+ for the cover, although you can clearly see ring wear on the photo. It sold for $385.
Chet Baker, Baker’s Holiday, Limelight 86019. This is an original stereo pressing. The record was in VG++ condition, the cover around VG+. It sold for $136.50.
Thelonious Monk, Monk’s Dream, Columbia 8765. This is a stereo pressing, with 2-eye label. The seller claims it is much rarer than the mono??????? It sold for $152.50.
Is it fair to say, about Bob D, that he puts up terrific records in great shape, and that while some folks here think he’s just puffing, and some folks here think he crosses the line, most everyone can agree that the “blame” for the high prices lies with the buyers? I mean, he’s not forcing people to pay $200+ for a Miles Smiles or Getz/Gilberto, right? In other words, our collective shock at outlier prices is a distinct issue from any one person’s good or bad opinion of Bob D. I’m as flummoxed as everyone else, but I see it mainly as a function of some buyers either not understanding precisely what they are buying and/or (more likely in my opinion) being willing to pay a (huge) premium for good service and a good product. I recall that we discussed the zero.street auctions in much the same language. It’s just that Bob D is more visible and has more frequent auctions. Is that a fair assessment?
Is his grading reliable? When I see something VG++ I expect it to be issue-free. His descriptions don’t make me think that will be the case. Anyway, the buyers make it impossible for me to even get in on the game.
And some fool just dropped $5000 on a copy of Agitation Free’s “Malesch,” (normally a $250 krautrock LP) so the pricing is across the board pretty insane.
Al,I don’t know about rarity,but Monk’s Dream(in mono) is an amazing SOUNDING lp..same thing for Criss Cross. With a mono cartridge,even better!
I wonder if others could get prices like that if they were to copy his auction style? Or, is it just that Bobby D. has an incredible reputation?
One would think that with all of the puffery in his auction listings that if enough buyers received anything less than “majestic analog sound” that he would have more negative feedbacks. In my experience, nothing is worse than opening a parcel and finding a record that looks as though Scott Hamilton went ice skating on it when it was advertised as mint. Conversely, nothing beats the feeling of opening a parcel and finding that the album which was listed as VG on eBay is actually mint.
The “Song for My Father” price is absolutely ridiculous
Joe L hits it bang on the head….do your homework, buyers, know what you are buying and the going rate. If buyers (suckers) are willing to listen to enticing words and throw bundles of cash at whats on offer, then good luck to Bobby D.
What gets my goat is bad descriptions deliberately
misleading. Recently i purchased from ebay a nice looking blue note original with great pictures and nice clear listing..wait for the great British postman, open my brown box with great excitment
(I love getting those boxes!) whats inside, a cover with ring wear, dinked corners, splits and scribble on the back cover…The pictures on ebay were of a beautiful minty looking cover….this donut of a seller had used images he found on the web and not the actual record he was selling.
Hence to say after much inconvenience to myself i shipped it back rom the UK to where it came, but what a pain in the back side. I suppose a down side to the ebay record buying culture we have all become so quickly immersed in. But as Upstate Bill said, I have also received records described as VG and they have been beauties…So swings and roundabouts !
“….do your homework, buyers, know what you are buying and the going rate”-Adamski
Exactly! What seems nutty is that one only has to click the “view similar items” link to get an instant idea of how much of a bargain your item may actually be. A “RARE” lp seems much less so when ten other identical listings come up. As a seller,I often use this to adjust my prices-as a buyer,I NEVER bid on an item without seeing if another copy is(or has recently been)available,and at what cost. i mean,that’s only common sense,right?
Richard – you’re quite correct, that price is shocking for Song For My Father. It’s not exactly a rare record which “never” comes up for auction. I can understand, a bit, if someone pays a premium for a NM copy of a personal favorite which does not often come up for auction and which has not been reissued a thousand times. An original Davis Cup, for example, or something like that. But I see a NY or Liberty copy of Song For My Father in the shops once a quarter for under $30. I bought a mint 1966 Liberty with NY labels for $6 last year, for the love of crumbcake! I think that’s what drives our collective forehead-slapping over Bob D’s auctions – not high prices for “rare” items, but incredibly high prices for incredibly common items.
The idea that many of you came up with, about doing your homework, is right on. My complaint deals with trying to use djukic’s prices to evaluate my own collection.
So, for example, when he gets a high price for a stereo copy having touted it as “far” rarer than the mono (how does he know this?), and I(as is often the case)have a stereo copy, I’m not sure how to evaluate his result. You need to ignore his ratings (which are often ridiculous) and instead read the description (one recent cover was rated as VG++ with a split seam, water damage and ring wear). The vinyl is sight-rated, never play-rated. I’m sure he doesn’t get negative feed-back because his descriptions are so elaborate that, if you read it all including the disclaimers, you can’t say he didn’t tell you what you were getting.
You can’t argue with his results, however, and I might even consider using him if I ever (perish the thought) sell my collection
“But as Upstate Bill said, I have also received records described as VG and they have been beauties…So swings and roundabouts !”
^ this ^
=) =) =)
Reading through all the comments regarding whether the high prices one particular seller is getting are justified, whether the people paying those prices are “suckers” reminds me of something my friend John in Arizona once said to me.
For background, John, who just turned 60, has lived pretty close to the bone for much of his life. He’s a born trader, buying and then selling at a profit anything and everything, doing it at roadside stands, swap meets, antique shows, you name it. While he’s most often found here and there in Arizona (just completed the Tucson Gem Show), he’s also pretty well known up in the Sante Fe area. John’s also a man with a big heart, who once handed me a fully operational Thorens TD 124 MK II, saying it was meant to come to me because I was the only persone he knew who would appreciate it. He wouldn’t take a dime for the turntable. “Hey, it only cost me four bucks. You can buy dinner sometime,” he said.
Now for the words of wisdom from Trader John.
“There are at least three levels collectors go through. The first level collectors get excited over anything and everything they think is collectible and they’ll pay just about anything to get it.”
“The second level collectors know a fair amount, but not as much as they think they do. They’re easy to spot because they come into my booth, flaunt their limited knowledge, try to tell me what I have isn’t really all that valuable, all to see if they can basically steal something from me.”
“The third level, these are the true collectors of rare items. They are looking for things so rare other collectors don’t even recognize. They come in, pick something up, study it, and generally pay my price, no questions asked. If someone else is in the booth, they make the sale without a word. If it’s just me, we get into some pretty interesting discussions about the rarity of the item. These are the people that are my best customers.”
My point here is that many of the people who have been commenting here would likely be Trader John customers – that is, if he were crazy enough to cart around rare vinyl to swap meets in 115 degree heat. The guy you’re so worked up about that sells on eBay, well he’s tapping a different customer base and apparently doing pretty well at it. Yes I understand his grading is at times suspect, but he apparently covers himself by being more accurate in his description. Having made some money in advertising and marketing I’ve certainly seen this tactic before. And as someone else noted, he wouldn’t last long if in the end what his buyers got in the mail wasn’t pretty much what they were expecting to get.
In any event, his is a world apart from yours. and as one commenter here said in essence, he’s someone you probably wouldn’t buy from, but wouldn’t mind having on your side if you wanted to sell off duplicates from your collection.
I know, this from some guy you don’t know at all, whose most prized jazz record is a Riverside reissue of Waltz for Debby he paid 69 cents for. But it’s in mint condition and I’m happy to have it because after all – I’m just a first level collector! 😉
Thanks for sharing, Jim! I think the analog of your story in vintage jazz record collecting is that many, many amazing recordings for labels other than Blue Note can be had at a very reasonable prices, some of which, as is the case with Prestige and Savoy, are even recorded by the Blue Note engineer Rudy Van Gelder. The first thing new vintage jazz collectors leech on to (I was no exception to this) is by and large Blue Note and, with the exception of a handful of titles from other labels (Prestige 7134 and New Jazz 8225, for example), I would say on average Blue Notes sell for five times as much as “comparable” titles from other labels (there are of course many reasons for this other than the behavior of inexperienced sellers). Another example is how reasonably priced originals of Thelonious Monk on Riverside typically are.
I think the important question, though, is how does a collector with their wits about them compete with the inexperienced maniacs? The simple answer, I believe, is patience. We seasoned collectors just need to wait for that moment where 1. the seller is asking a reasonable price (on ebay, this means the starting bid is low with no reserve), and 2. the inexperienced maniac collectors are all looking the other way…in this sense, when someone like Djukic is selling on ebay, it should be a feeding frenzy for seasoned collectors to get things at fair prices from other dealers haha
I think that you guys are getting worked up about the wrong thing. The issue should not be how much he is getting for his records because none of us would pay that much. The bigger issue I think that gets lost in this argument is where and how do you think he gets his records to sell in the first place? I doubt that these are all coming from a personal collection he had stored in the basement for 30 years waiting for today to see the light of day. I personally believe (and I have zero proof to back this up) is that Bob buys alot of records on eBay under different names and is able to flip these records at a significant premium by leveraging the BobD brand. Kudos to him.
If I had an issue, it would be that he bids the price up for more modestly priced records that folks on this board are watching and trying to buy. He can pay more because he can. Not because he is some crazed Asian Type 1 collector. It is that his brand premium allows him to. Call it a form of arbitrage if you will.
I have had to give up on eBay as a source of records over the past 2 years. I can’t recall when I last won an auction. That is perhaps the frustration that many of us are feeling.
Dave, I agree to an extent. I think the people that get frustrated with Bob want to make reasonable bids on some of these *rare* records but are outmatched by inexperienced buyers (or experienced buyers with deep pockets). So the issue is, in fact, how much he is getting–if you want the record.
But wait, are you saying that you think he “bids up” his auctions?? That’s quite the accusation…any evidence?
Not saying he bids up his auctions at all. Only that he can pay more on other auctions to acquire records than me as his motive may be to make money via flipping and not collect. Even if I was a flipper, he can make more money because his brand equity is higher. It would be no different than if Fred at JRC or Atomic Records bought on eBay and didn’t just sell on eBay.
Bob is the Chevron gasoline of jazz record selling. Chevron gets 10 cents more a gallon than the generic gas station due to its secret blend of Techtron additives.
I think DaveS is correct. It does seem like Bobby D. sells a lot of the same titles over and over. Perhaps he re-sells the duplicates from his collection that are not his “keeper copies.”
I used to think that maybe Bobby D. had an “in” at a thrift store or something where he got first dibs on whatever comes into the store. I know a dealer who gets to inspect all of the records and audio equipment that come into a local thrift store. He is good friends with the manager. I think DaveS’s explanation is more plausible, though. I also doubt that Bobby D. is selling records on behalf of others for a commission.
@Jim Neal -> Excellent post, especially about the three levels of collectordom.
Dave: I see…you’re saying that when he BUYS on ebay, he’s “bidding up the price”. Ok, maybe, but even if you take into consideration the value of his brand–which I am in complete agreement with you about in that it is a very important factor in the high final values he gets–how high can he really bid it up if he’s going to flip it? And do we really know he’s buying on ebay at all?
FTR, Bob lives in New York City, where he’s probably more likely to find collections the good old fashioned way.
I have been fascinated by BobD and his auctions for years. More like reading a mystery novel than taking the pulse of the market thing for me. When a guy sells a common Janis Joplin LP for 700 bucks while at the same time 35 copies of the identical title and pressing are listed and can’t fetch an opening bid at $19.99, one can’t help but wonder if something more is at hand than “brand.” Especially when the same title shows up again several times in his auction in the following months.
His listings alway have something enjoyable if you look closely. On the recent Sonny RCA record, he talks about the promo stamp on the cover and how it is indicative of the very first pressings for LPs. Then in his pictures, he shows a picture of the 2S stamper on the actual record, which is indicative of non-first, albeit, early pressing.
Fun stuff.
“I have had to give up on eBay as a source of records over the past 2 years. I can’t recall when I last won an auction. That is perhaps the frustration that many of us are feeling”-Dave S.
Interesting idea,but doesn’t that go against the reality that Al and a number of folks are experiencing? That is,that overall prices for lps are DOWN compared to a few years ago? Rare items in general bring less…and once lower-bid items may bring nothing at all? Unless,of course,they’re on you-know-who’s list!(lol) And Jim Neal:thanks for bringing what sounds like “the voice of reason” to the topic. We all can get bent out of shape over the vagaries of this crazy affair we have with “the music”. I can stop at “wow”,but a primal scream is usually just a “you’ve been outbid” notice away…
Richard Connerton – Thanks to you. Yes, I’ve certainly seen “Blue Note Fever.” I do have a few, pretty much all Jimmy Smith’s I picked up as a lot for lunch money. Even deep as they cut the groove, I’m not sure these would even play, but the condition of the jackets made it worth it for me. I suspect the best way for anyone to “compete” with frenzied eBay buyers is simply not to do it. Surely with the communication that goes on within the jazz collector community, there have to be other avenues for picking things up at reasonable prices. Me, I’ve never purchased a record on eBay and doubt I ever will. Admittedly the 6,000 albums in my collection are for the most part not worth much more than what I paid for them (usually under a buck, often well under that), but I’m always able to check condition before I buy. Maybe I’m just a hands on guy, but eBay just doesn’t do it for me.
“Me, I’ve never purchased a record on eBay and doubt I ever will.”-Jim Neal
Uh,Jim..as much as it pains me to say this,you have just lost your “voice of reason” status(fame is SO fleeting). Please check your pulse!(lol)
@ everybody, I guess. Say first, I’m just getting used to how to track discussions here, so I only now noticed a few people said a nice thing or two about my recounting Trader John’s observation about collectors. Much appreciated.
Now, I forgot to introduce myself. This particular Jim lives in Raymore, Mo which is on the far south end of the Kansas City Metro area. When I say there’s a cow pasture at the end of my cul-de-sac I’m not kidding. My knowledge of jazz is about as basic as it gets. My budget for music in general is about as basic as it gets too, which means I’m your average thrift store shopper, the occasional Craigslist shopper, though we all know how dicey that can be.
I seem to pick things up in part because I look at them, say, “what the Hell is this, I never heard of this artist (or label or both).” then I hop online to learn about it. For me it’s as much about learning as it is listening. Today I picked up this Jimmy Smith on Up Front and while I knew Jimmy Smith, I’ve never seen an Up Front label, so despite there being no jacket (thankfully it was in something that once was an inner sleeve), despite the vinyl seeming a bit thin and looking like what I’d consider a cheapie pressing, I just plopped down my 69 cents, brought it home, cleaned it up and gave it a listen. Worth more than I paid for it? I don’t really much care. I learned something and I got a good listen too. That was worth the price of admission I think.
@ceedee. I was famous? Less than 15 minutes I’m sure. Hey, I’m not much for competing, it’s true. If there’s another guy rummaging through records at one of my favorite stores I generally just go somewhere else. I might push to the head of a line for a Boddington’s but that’s about it.
Jim – you’re speaking my language! The music is more important than the object. I think that is part of what drives the discussion about some of these auctions – that people are paying outrageous-over-the-top prices for common records, thus negating BOTH the joy of the music (which can be had for $.69 cents), and the joy of collecting a rare thing, and appreciating its rarity.
Hi all!
Nice discussion here. I’m a jazz collector from Sweden since about 10 years ago I started buying vinyl again. Before that I bought more CDs which are great to listen to and rip to files but are not really collectable apart from some special editions audiophile or japaneese etc etc.
Anyway I wished I got hooked on vintage vinyl sooner since yes the prices have gone up so much and sometimes rediculously so. Ebay with its companion popsike are both destroying the market and feeding it at the same time. My local dealers in Stockholm goes to popsike every time to check what some crazy guy with deep pockets in Japan or Korea has paid for a record in the last couple of years. If its really sold, paid or sent back again we can’t be sure can we?
For me it feels like when sellers like Bob D gets top dollars for not so special items he gets top dollars because they are “nice” items and probably because the buyers either don’t really know how to sort out a real first pressing or that their end customers don’t really know or care about the details. They got a nice record that feels and probably sounds nice. They paid to much from a collectors point of view but I guess they are happy anyway. Too little time and too much money….
My point is towards Bob D is that his very tiresome listings makes everything look like gold and it takes a knowledgable collector to really spot what the item really is. When the info is not in his favour he omits the info and does not mention it. And this guy is knowledgable which I have learned from reading his posts in various forums.
At the same time he mentions a lot of info that’s totally irrelevant like that the record of cover does NOT have imperfections. Just list the problems please. I really have to look closely to get the relevant info like the condition of the Why just not playgrade the LP instead of writing all that irrelevant info? He says things like “generally” first pressings use thick and heavy vinyl and sound great. But it has not got to be exactly THIS copy that is a first pressing. An Original US pressing does not have to be first. A Liberty pressing is an Original US pressing for sure but it is usually not a FIRSt pressing. Ah, you collectors know all that 😉
Well at the end of the day he does write a lot about each record and it all sound so great. I have to give him credit for that. It’s sellers talk and he’s good at it. But what bothers me is that it drives up the market prices and a lot of sellers start to think that their Liberty pressings without ear are worth gold. I see higher prices for vinyl that is not in good condition with groove distortion ticks and pops and scraches etc. Not so fun.
Yes there are different kind of collectors of vinyl. I’ve found that collecting is not always so much about the music itself but it’s much more than that. It’s history and archeology – preserving the artifacts. It’ holding a piece of history in your hand. The covers are nice etc. And when you are lucky you can play the LP and it is in good enough condition to be appreciated 😉
Would it just be about the music you could just get online and buy the CD or go to Spotify to listen. I have much music both on CD and LP. Why? I like LPs. Does it sound much better then the CD? Not usually but sometimes there is that magic. Generally not though IMHO. Granted some music is not out on CD or online but many of the high priced LPs are very easy to obtain on CD. So it’s not all about the music. But it makes us happy to find that nice LP for sure and we all have our different standards as to what we buy and for how much 😉
@ Joe L and Shaft – For me, there is often the feeling I’m “rescuing history” from that dusty bottom shelf in a thrift store whenever I pick up a recording that, in my little world, just seems so, well not supposed to be there. And I agree that while much of the music I buy can be had on CD, it will never be the same because it’s simply not the original. I love putting on a new record, reading the jacket while it plays, studying the photos, particularly those that capture the period. I love seeing the name of an artist in the credits, somebody I’ve heard play before on some other headliner’s album.
That’s not to say I’m one who has no use for the digital medium. Anything I listen to gets recorded at 96/24, painstakingly restored using ClickRepair with settings that allow me to make my own decisions on what to correct. It’s a laborious process that leads to my taking considerably more time to process an album than it does to listen to it, but the end result, downsampled and imported into iTunes, gives my wife and I access to the digital library anytime, anywhere.
I do have a suggestion for those folks who have real concerns about any particular ebayer, who you believe routinely make statements about their records that are flat out wrong, or at best highly misleading. Why not ask the seller to respond to pointed questions that would give pause to anyone with lesser knowledge who might bid on the item?
While I said I’d probably never buy a record on eBay, I didn’t say I’ve never bought anything there. For a time I was watching many listings for Dual 1249’s as one of my backups is a 1249 one with the original 840 motor and I wanted to pick up a donor turntable with the 860. If you’re not familiar with why, basically the 840 has problems that the 860 corrected. Many, many sellers don’t have a clue about the issue, but I also know there are those that do andsay nothing about the motor in the turntable they’re selling. So I often asked the pertinent question, but at the same time, made sure to explain just what was wrong with the 840. I know in several instances the seller was happy to add the information to their listing, but in others, well I never heard back. Hey, I even ended up becoming friends with a guy in Knoxville who has been repairing Duals for years. In the end, I bought a motor from him, because earlier he’d flat out given me another part I sorely needed.
Point here is if you believe a seller is playing some game, using a shill to drive up prices, intentionally mis-representing what he’s selling as more than it really is, why not compose a very pointed question that contains the information you think other potential bidders should have – the info you think the seller intentionally left out?? I don’t see a problem with even posing a question like, “Hey, you sold copy of this record last month, was it returned or is this a different copy? If it was returned, could you tell me why and it’s a different copy, could you describe some of the differences between the two? Is it in better or worse shape, etc?”
If he’s a stand-up guy, he’ll thank you and answer your question and the question will get posted for other potential bidders to read. if not, then you’ve learned something important about him, something that may make it easier for you to just ignore his auctions.
Now back to listening to some non-jazz via the AppleTV. Liz Story – Solid Colors, which works well over morning coffee while my wife sleeps in.
Hi Jim,
I don’t see that much of a problem with Bob D – but I have to admit that his listings are very tiresome to read. However as a collector that know things about things I feel a bit sorry for people that pay maybe too much for some items. But then again it’s a free market right.
But I don’t like the general market going up because sellers give the appearance that the have unique items that are quite common and that the items in an angled seller description fetch big bucks because of an ignorant buyer.
Some seller make a name for themselves and their auctions go higher because the have a name and they can be trusted. In Bob d’s case you can apparently just send an item back that was not up to liking – no questions asked (and I guess that no bad feedback is being given either).
Generally I don’t think Bob D is dishonest he just shows whats is good with every LP (and does not point out the bad things. No crime in that. I feel no use to ask a lot of questions to Bob about his listings if the LPs are not interesting to me as a potential buyer. I do not bid on his auctions. Don’t feel like -and it would probably just drive prices up more 😉
That said I’ve been a regular eBayer since a long time. Sometimes you get a great item and sometimes heavily overgraded ones. Mint is very strechable word as many of you know. I try to avoid more that $50 auctions and most of my expensive LPs were bought on site and after listening to the records before buying.
Shaft:
“Yes there are different kind of collectors of vinyl. I’ve found that collecting is not always so much about the music itself but it’s much more than that. It’s history and archeology – preserving the artifacts. It’ holding a piece of history in your hand. The covers are nice etc. And when you are lucky you can play the LP and it is in good enough condition to be appreciated
Would it just be about the music you could just get online and buy the CD or go to Spotify to listen. I have much music both on CD and LP. Why? I like LPs. Does it sound much better then the CD? Not usually but sometimes there is that magic. Generally not though IMHO. Granted some music is not out on CD or online but many of the high priced LPs are very easy to obtain on CD. So it’s not all about the music. But it makes us happy to find that nice LP for sure and we all have our different standards as to what we buy and for how much”
Great post…couldn’t agree more.
Thanks Richard!
Well I write from the heart. I recently saw a kind of documentary on youtube that was not so flattering for us collectors. For me it was more about collectors that have gone over the line and it all ended up the records owning them causing personal problems.
Watch it at your own risk….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNRvB8lyRSM
Thanks for sharing dude!
That film is a Horror show!!!!!
ARGHHHHHHHH
Real talk at 9:20 of that video, which, by the way, is amazing and worth its weight in gold
Everybody is so weird in this documentary it’s great
Real talk again at 16:28
HARVEY PEKAR AT 19:45!!!
What a great video this is-I think anyone who has ever flipped through a crate of lps will see a little bit of themselves in it. Funny,I couldn’t help but think that anyone smoking a cig should find a seperate space for their(other)addiction. That is,a scratched lp is worse than a smelly one..but not by much. And yeah,it was great to see Harvey Pekar telling our filmmaker he could “stand to lose a little weight”. I miss Harvey. Thanks to Shaft for the link-you ARE a bad mutha-(hey,I’m just talkin’ bout Shaft).
Told you guys the video was x-rated for collectors 😉
I couldn’t stop watching it….
I see on Ebay that an lp mentioned as a “must have” in the ‘collectors gone wild’ film is currently listed by Atomic Records. Hmm..did someone recently see the video and figure ‘why not?’,or perhaps just a coincidence.Either way,if the Louvin Brothers is your cup of tea,you’re in luck. Or maybe you dig weird covers-and this has got to be right there with the best(worst) of them!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOUVIN-BROTHERS-Satan-Is-Real-ORIGINAL-CAPITOL-LP-T-1277-MINT-/380591717310?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item589d08bbbe