Another eBay Debate: What’s The Value Of A Dealer’s Reputation?
We know we’ve sparked debate with our chronicling of prices of high-end collectibles sold on eBay (see, The Great eBay Debate). We still believe that this, by far, is the most accurate depiction of the market, because it is the market, worldwide. However, we also recognize that there are certain variables within eBay that effect record prices. One of the most critical of these, is the quality and reputation of the seller. We bring this up because we were updating the Jazz Collector Price Guide this weekend and we were logging in a couple of records that went for pretty high prices versus what they’ve sold for in the past. The two records were: Horace Silver, Finger Poppin’, Blue Note 4008. This was an original West 63rd Street pressing in M- condition. It sold for $247.50. The other
record was Johnny Griffin, The Kerry Dancers, Riverside 9420. This was a stereo pressing with the black label and it was also in M- condition. It sold for $176.50. What these records had in common, aside from the fact that they are both great records, is that they were sold by Euclid Records, which clearly has a very strong international reputation as a reputable dealer and as a purveyer of quality records. Is it fair to measure the price of records sold by Euclid versus those sold by other sellers, who don’t have a comparable reputation. We’d actually argue that it is more than fair, and the price that Euclid gets is the strongest indicator of the real market value of the record. This takes out one of the key factors in deciding what to bid on eBay — whether you can trust the seller. If you take out that factor, you get a much more accurate reading on what someone is willing to pay for the record.
What do you think? Are we ready for The Great eBay Debate, Part 2?
One of the big problems with eBay is not being able to see, touch or, most important, hear the records. Because of that, I believe that many potential buyers — particularly at the high end — are either not using eBay at all, or only using it to buy from dealers they know and trust, such as Euclid or the Jazz Record Center.
I agree with Mike. For the reasons he stated, the internet is more of a deterrent than not. Yeah, I’ll buy from dealers I know and trust. But that’s it.
As with anything, there’s a point at which you stop paying for the product and start paying for the brand. And while I may splurge now and then, I’d rather bide my time and chance across a VG+ Johnny Griffin lp at the local store for $25 than pay out $176 for the same copy just because I could be instantly gratified by buying it online.
That’s not collecting, it’s shopping.
Well put, Jason. It’s not unlike buying books….Yes, Amazon is great, but it’s hard to replicate the fun of locating a rare edition at a local bookstore (and I don’t necessarily mean the chains like Borders, etc.)
Unfortunately for honest “small volume” sellers, the reputation of known dealers makes it that their albums are sold with a premium, and/or that the small, lesser known seller, sells with a discount, even if his merchandise is of the same quality or better. As a “small” seller with a 100 positive feedback I experienced many times that my albums went for far less than the name sellers would obtain. This is frustrating, but a reality.
Mike, I believe one pays more for a virtual album on EBay than for one that one has got in his hands. It has happened to me quite often that, on a flea market, I left an album to regret it later. For a physical album there is always a reason to find not to buy: an minor imperfection, the asking price, the attitude of the seller etc.
Can we say there are 2 markets: the “physical” and the “virtual”?
Re EBay: I agree with Al, the market is in the top end, the just price, without doubts as to quality, is with the name sellers. Although I was surprised that an unknown seller in France obtains such a high price for Monk on Prestige 7053. Would JRC have obtained even more?? Who knows?
Another reason for higher prices being asociated with eBay sales has to do with the competitive nature of auctions. You’re not buying an lp at a set price, you’re competing against others. And for some people the competition is what matters most, not how much they’re spending to “win”. Or if they should be spending that much.
Jason, you are right. It becomes irrational. The competition makes people behave irrationnally. Reminds me of the Tulip auctions in the Golden Age in Amsterdam, where fortunes were made and lost.
I agree with everything here. Each of previous posts says a part of the truth . I might add, that, imo, Japanese and other Asian buyers have ruined the record collector market, with too much Ebay irrationality. Many newcomers are even more insane : look at those incredible ebay bidders with low feedback. For example, how can a (relisted) Thelonious Monk record in VG condition can sell for more than 2000 $ ? Moreover, from an unknown seller ! This is non sense. This is much more compulsion than collection. Nobody would pay that price in a shop with the record in hand, because the flaws would be too obvious. Anyway, most dealers sells their really valuable records through Ebay, because thay expect this Jazz record frenzy. And Euclid, Music Matters, and some others are the winner of the frenzy, because they are able to provide endless samples of Nm copies for the Asians
I think it is no different than high-end antique dealers or auctions. People are willing to pay crazy money to ensure getting a quality piece. I don’t think nationality has anything to do with it (with the exception of the cheap dollar). American guys pay tens of thousands of dollars for collectible cars that have to be restored.
Some people can’t deal with sub-standard grading and will pay alot to avoid it. Just today I got a decent copy of Joe Henderson Mode for Joe off eBay for $20. Seller said it was New York USA. Unfortunately the other label was Liberty. Now I have to mess around with him, ship it back, get a refund, etc. Not the way I want to spend my time.
Yes i agree with your story about Mode For Joe… I think we all have had ‘and will have) this kind of waste of time (and money). I did not say that the Japanese ruined the market because they are japanese, but that’s a fact that they have been the vanguard of the Blue Note hysteria in the 80’s. And they still are. And we must admit that everything that is crisp clean, flawless is of outstanding value in the Japanese culture (especially in the Shinto)
It’s great to see all the back and forth on this. From my standpoint, as an American, I have tremendous appreciation for the Japanese and other Asians, plus the Europeans and other citizens of the world, who have embraced jazz with such passion and enthusiasm. I shudder to think what would have happened to the music if it relied completely on the tastes and attitudes of the American public. From a collectibles standpoint, I believe the market is the market and the Japanese and others who began paying big prices for Blue Notes and other original albums in the 1980s were well ahead of the curve. I’m sure that, today, we would all jump at the prices that were paid for rare collectibles in the 1980s and early 1990s. It would be nice to pay $30 for an original Blue Note, but I say thank God there is enough interest and demand around the world for the music that the law of supply and demand creates a much higher value for these beautiful and rare collectibles.
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