Are You Ready for the $6,000 Bin?
Got a note from our friend Japhy yesterday pointing me to this: John Coltrane, Blue Train, Blue Note 1577. This was an original pressing with the New York 23 labels and “Review Copy” stamp on the labels. It was listed in Ex+ condition, which I would imagine to be VG++, and the sellers points at that there are some “slightly audible” tics. The cover is listed in M- condition. Not that it matters, but it had a Blue Note inner sleeve with the Tina Brooks album Back to the Tracks, which, to my knowledge, wasn’t released until sometime in the 1980s. In any case, this record sold for $6,343, which is certainly why Japhy would have forwarded it to me. According to Popsike this copy of Blue Train, tics and all, sets a new price record and is the first to surpass $5,000, let alone $6,000.
Is it time to create a $6,000 bin? Not just Blue Train, but there was also this: Kenny Dorham, Afro-Cuban, Blue Note 1535. This was from the Jazz Record Center auction and was an “original” 12-inch pressing. I use the quote marks because the original original was the 10-inch version, with fewer tracks, but all of the Afro-Cuban variety. This one was in pristine condition and sold for $6,421.12. This topped the previous high price by more than $2,000. From that same auction there was Kenny Burrell, Blue Note 1543. This has the Andy Warhol cover and is the last of the Lexington Avenue Blue Notes. This was also in pristine condition for the record and the cover. It sold for $2,412, once again setting a new price record.
The inner sleeve with the Tina Brooks is original; the album was actually advertised back in the day but never released. It’s from the early sixties though, this copy of Blue Train certainly wouldn’t have come with it …
That review stamp also looked a little suspect. Too modern, too clean and too perfectly aligned. I hope that whoever bought this will be happy.
@DJ Pari, the same thought occurred to me. But then I figured, how many people have a “Review Copy” rubber stamp lying around? Note that the same stamp also appears on a Louis Smith BLP 1594 from this seller (though stamped on both sides). However, the stamp is not on some other Blue Notes he sold, so either he’s *very* calculated so as to not draw too much attention, or he’s legit. Anyone know if this is how Blue Note marked its review copies back then?
This seller also had a bunch of really pricey Classical sides in his last auction. Man, I wish I knew more about Classical LPs — many of them go for righteous bucks! Every time I come across some at Goodwill I spot check a couple on Popsike just to make sure I’m not leaving thousands in the bin.
@ japhy, the few review copies of Blue Notes I have are Liberty era and the stamp is on the back of the jacket above the liner notes, but no stamp on the label. Obviously not apples to apples comparison, but…
I didn’t realize that there were a number of copies of Blue Train that had surpassed the $3,000 mark. Crazy.
While a case can be made for fantastic-condition original copies of these types of LPs going for big money, this just seems like buyers who don’t truly know what they are doing.
I also place no value (or even negative value) on this type of promo stamp.
buyers are panicking that they will never get some of these collectibles because the high price halo effect is starting to take hold. the bubble, she bursts soon, methinks.
and then some of these will settle back down to still high but reasonable prices.
at least i effing hope so. good god.
I think Greg is right that buyers are panicking. It seems like a rush at the high end.
Love the avatar Iron City. What’s it from?
All the people here seem to be crazy.
American in the 1800s who are polite, serious, and don’t get mad at fake news.
From amateur seller Kim of This Blue Train!!
Any ideas as to why the majority of these items that sell for such ludicrous prices are in foreign countries (Asia, Germany, France etc)? The JRC auctions excepted I am amazed that so many of these highest end items are shipped from overseas sellers. How did all these rarities even get over there in the first place? Perhaps that is where less knowledgeable buyers are located? It almost seems like it has become a status symbol type of thing to own something like this and I wonder if they are ever even listened to and treasured for their sound.
Arnt JRC professional seller who is just profit-seeking shop , Are He?
Is ethnic homogeneity the only thing that matters?
Please, I hope it’s a site with high- quality writing and comments.
And, why are you rudely erasing my comments?
Kim
I’ll be on the floor crate digging the $1.00 bargain bins ….
Any body dont have 6000bin here?
I wish you not to flirt behind me, but if you want one,Please go forward like well-known American without hesitation(as I did when I was a Buyer).
From Kim
PS; Pls delete my writing, Web manager^. To think about us once more!!!!
This site is well know here in Korea….!!!
These two have just as clean and aligned REVIEW COPY on the label, although it’s a different font so clearly from a different stamp.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kenny-Dorham-Whistle-Stop-Blue-Note-Vinyl-LP-Ear-BLP-4063-47-W-63-Review-Copy/263509392250?hash=item3d5a623b7a:g:oT0AAOSwuPdbTnj9
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kenny-Dorham-Whistle-Stop-Blue-Note-Vinyl-LP-Ear-BLP-4063-47-W-63-Review-Copy/263509392250?hash=item3d5a623b7a:g:oT0AAOSwuPdbTnj9
The Blue Note review copies for sure will be another Blue Note topic discussion for the next eleven years :
– color of the stamp,
– place of the stamp,
– type of ink,
– error of stamp in the “r” of review, (command highest prices)
– unusual form of the “w”,
– a shade of unusual clear blue in the “o” of “copy” (rarer than the regular navy blue)
All those variant will command new record prices : 25000 $ for a one of a kind “review copy” with a missing “P”, 35000 $ for an unusual red “review copy” stamp. 55000 $ for two “review copy” anomaly on the front cover.
Another discussion could raise around the smell of the cardboard which differs slightly from BLP 1567 to BLP 1599 and 4000 – 4100 series
GST- I’ll answer for IronCityJazz. It’s the cover of a Ray Bryant record on the Argo/Cadet label. “Lonesome Traveller.” Remember that record well, as I bought it at Olde Wells Record sShop on North State St, Chicago after hearing Ray Bryant at Chicago’s Jazz Showcase or somewhere back in the 60’s. Of course record and venue is long gone. Apologies for long winded down memory lane answer.
Yes, Ray Bryant LP. I hadn’t checked back so thank you lennib for the answer.
Kim ss,
I don’t blame you for getting high prices. The market is the market, and if a seller can get it, so be it. I’m simply questioning the behavior of the buyers who are bidding these things up to ridiculous levels.
I think it’s pretty damn rude to assume that buyers in Asia don’t know about records, jazz, and so forth. Mr. Kim is right to take offense.
$6,000 is a lot of money for a record but there are people who will splash out for things all over the world. It’s called being rich.
I also doubt the originality of the stamp but it could have been applied by anyone, anywhere, over the last 50 years, so who knows what the deal is.
Putting aside the validity of the “Review Stamp” on this record, should we care if there is one or not. I totally get the interest in White Label Promos or A1/B1 masters for high volume releases. But in the case of Blue Note or Prestige, I doubt that they had paid for a small Review pressing run. Wouldn’t the stamp be just to designate it went to a DJ or Magazine Reviewer and there was no charge for it? I am re-reading the Ashley Kahn Making of Love Supreme book, and they interviews from people who were at Impulse, DJs or distributors. One of the quotes mentioned that there were a handful of Jazz DJs in the 60s who were considered influencers. Add to that some newspaper people and magazine writers. Would there been more than 100 Review Copies sent out? Unlikely. So to me this indicates that they were all from the initial run of 500-1000 and not any more special than any other 1st pressing.
but no one said that, clifford.
If you’re buying one record for $6,000, I really really want to see your turntable set up.
I’ve been looking carefully to BN the last ten years and noticed that in the 1500 series, Blue Note used “FOR PROMOTION” up to 1563 at least. the first REVIEW COPY I could look at was 1597. 1577 stays in the middle so I can’t confirm.
Actually the Blue Train does not have the correct inne bag as it should have a plain white inner being 1577. The printed inner bags did not come until 4050. As for the review stamp who knows? If they have used slightly different stamps and ink. Why not? If this was a process over several years either in the plastylite factory or warehouse or in blue notes office. A rubber stamp could have been replaced/lost or whatever and the ink pad dried out. However it would be enlightening to find more records with the exact same stamp font etc…
looking further, I have pics of 1577, NY 23 side 2, with FOR PROMOTION on both labels and back cover.
Dear EveryBody,
I do think You can never be a music lover and good record player but slurred collector or record appraiser^^
What about $6,000? What’s the difference with $60?
What about fake pond, Wha’s the differnce with real review copy?
Do you know the playback curve of BLP 1577(recorded on Nov 1597)?
And is it really exciting to be narrow-minded about record itself, to be nervous about record prices, to drive people crazy?
Wow, I(We) dont understand Your thought and dont know what you’re after…….
Wish you to be music-player and regard your country’s records as Gems like the people here in Korea ^^*~~
Kim
Mistyping: 1597 year ?1957 .
DavidS – Although most “Review Copy” stamped lps were sent out to radio stations to help promote each release there may have been copies sent out later. This is why I think Prestige used a Stamp rather than doing a short press run like Blue Note did in the earlier years.
I’m wondering if a radio station mishandled and scratched their “RC” copy they would then contact a record label for another. Since radio was the primary way for record labels to generate sales I think Prestige, for example, would grab another stock copy and stamp and mail it.
Correction to my previous post @ japhy: it is a New York label era that has this similar review copy stamp, the Liberty era “promos” I have have two different indicators – on Andrew Hill Andrew !!! BST 4203 there is an “Audition Copy MONO LP not for sale” 1″ square sticker on top front of jacket, and Andrew Hill Compulsion 4217 has an “Audition Copy” stamp on back of jacket that is much larger than the “Review Stamp” in the previous examples. @ DavidS – Great Point! @ Michael – the Blue Note label stamp has a more distinct “green tea” scent than the Liberty era
I’m trying to get through Mr Kim’s message but it’s hard with the presumed auto-translate. But anyway I’m certain that there are many many collectors in Korea that care deeply about music and pressings. Just as I’m sure everyone does here at jazzcollector. Collectors are just music lovers who also care to know what they are playing. Just to love the music you do not need to collect anything. Just make a tidal or spotify subscription and you have all the music you’ll ever need forntye rest of your life. But IMO collecting is fun! I also understand why people buy really expensive records. Maybe you have been searching a long time for that special 1st Pressing and you finally find it. If you are well off or just prioritize records in your life you can maybe buy it for a handsome sum.
to greg’s point, belatedly, I copy:
Any ideas as to why the majority of these items that sell for such ludicrous prices are in foreign countries (Asia, Germany, France etc)? The JRC auctions excepted I am amazed that so many of these highest end items are shipped from overseas sellers. How did all these rarities even get over there in the first place? Perhaps that is where less knowledgeable buyers are located? It almost seems like it has become a status symbol type of thing to own something like this and I wonder if they are ever even listened to and treasured for their sound.
Kim ss April 18, 2019 6:29 pm
Arnt JRC professional seller who is just profit-seeking shop , Are He?
Is ethnic homogeneity the only thing that matters?
Please, I hope it’s a site with high- quality writing and comments.
And, why are you rudely erasing my comments?
Kim
…so I guess the original post also included Europeans. Less knowledgeable buyers/status symbols. Still prejudiced.
The reason all the highest priced items are shipped from overseas sellers is they originally bought them for prices that American collectors wouldn’t. These titles weren’t mass produced in the 50’s and early 60’s as Blue Note, Riverside, and Prestige were small privately owned companies. They didn’t have international distribution set up and even in America you’d find most were sold locally.
Before ebay, International dealers would offer top dollar for mint records and here in NYC many used lp stores would set aside the high-end titles from collections for said dealers. Many dealers would pay top book value or higher to encourage dealers to put items aside. Very few dealers actually knew what they sold for overseas.
For instance, in 1997 the Goldmine Jazz Price Guide had Hank Mobley BLP1568 listed for $175 Mint. Japanese dealer were selling BLP1568 for $800 to $1000 so paying $175 was a good deal for them.
That’s why so many Holy Grails ended up overseas before Ebay changed the world wide market.
@Woody. Agreed. I spent some time with Dan Serro ten years ago. He had a collection easily in excess of 15,000 LPs (and bootleg tapes of course 😉 but most of his stuff was on larger labels like Atlantic. Since he had been collecting since the 50s, I asked him where all the BNs, Prestige, etc. were. He said he sold it all to Japanese collectors in the 90s. Despite the current prices, he didn’t regret it as he wanted the money. Plus he probably experienced the demise of the Trad Jazz market and felt it was better to take the cash and not speculate on future trends.
Mr Kim is offended by Brian Anderson’s rather naive question how it comes that these rare items are all of a sudden showing up from overseas( Korea, France, to name a few exotic places, where ownership of these albums would enhance someone’s status -sic!). I feel also offended by this utter nonsense.
I cannot speak for Korea, but Blue Notes, Prestige, Savoy, the Norman Granz labels, Pacific Jazz, Contemporary, ESP, to name a few labels, have always been readily available in record shops on the Continent from the early fifties on. People bought these records because they liked the music, nothing else. American record firms had exclusive distribution agreements with sole importers in each West European country. The choice of jazz albums in major Paris, Amsterdam, Brussels, Geneva record shops in the fifties was overwhelming. What Woody is suggesting is totally wrong. I can assure you that there is a treasure hidden in major European collections, carefully accumulated in the last 60 to 70 years.
Japan and So. Korea have been exposed to their ‘liberators’ from the early fifties on. So I am not surprised to see rare items coming from these countries too. But I would be surprised to see rare items offered from India, for instance, or Mongolia.
interesting, clifford. i just took it as an idle question on the part of the person that said it. but your viewpoint is understandable.
like few, i don’t care what people pay for their records. i hope they enjoy them, and i think the hubbub about high prices is rather silly.
still, i think the question as to why so many collectible records go overseas is an interesting one. 1) is it even true? or are we just only seeing the big-ticket sales (like ‘why do squirrels only run across the road right in front cars?) 2) I would suspect it is because they simply have more money. japan is a very wealthy country, for example.
on the flip side, consider being a seller. no argument can be that $6k is not a very high price for that record, and the seller has done well, as we all would want to do in his position.
when I met Leon Leavitt, almost 40 years ago, we talked for about two hours about Jazz records, buyers, rarities and the market. it was no Internet era, all went through paper lists sent all over the world. Leon confessed his best customers being from Japan and Italy. France, Great Britain and Northern Europe were the Countries where Jazz was most appreciated, certainly more than USA. many musicians flew to Europe to make a living: Bud, Dexter, Ayler to name just three. concerts were always sold out and the circulation of Jazz records widespread. it’s no surprise that many 40’s, 50’s and 60’s gems gathered in many collections on the Old Continent or Japan. maybe Korea rised a bit later but now it’s well established. my impression is that USA, homeland of Jazz, inattentive by rock’n’roll, lost in some way the train of Jazz record collecting. nowadays, the market set the price, but the market is the whole world, Korea included.
I bought my first jazz albums in the late 80s and was not even born in the palmy days ot Prestige, Blue Note, Savoy, etc. But I just reading Torbjörn Söörhus (owner of Birka Jazz in Stockholm) book about the record stores in Stockholm from 1922 until today and regarding distribution he says ”Nordiska Musikförlaget sold a a lot of classical music but jazz was also huge for them in the 50:s. They had exclusive rights for Blue Note in Sweden and imported the records directly from US. All new releases were advertised in the major jazz magazine Orkesterjournalen” (which by the way is the oldest jazz magazine in the world that still are published). So, there is no mystery that the albums are available over here and I have bought the major part of my collection locally.
Collin: interesting story about Sweden. In my native Holland the situation was the same. I would go once a month to my friendly neighbourhood record store in The Hague and ask the young ladies ‘what’s new on Savoy’ or Prestige, you name it. They would come with a pile of all available Blue Notes, Norgrans etc. from behind the counter. One would select some and they would play them on a turntable at the counter and hand you one or two earphones for listening. That is how I bought the last issued Blue Note, #1522. That is how far Blue Note had progressed at that time, # 1522. My first Prestige was # 7038, the last to be issued and imported into Holland! The whole range would be available throughout the country, even in provincial towns. Like the Colony in New York. Jazz was a big thing in Western Europe. In London, Dobell’s on Charing Cross Road, carried jazz only.
The 10″ albums were in the sales bins at Dfls 8,90. I still remember the Clifford Brown/Gigi Gryce issues on Blue Note (ex Vogue), no buyers, everyone went for the new 12″ mode. The same situation in Belgium.
For the bigger markets the situation was a bit different. Rather than having an exclusive importer for direct sales, some US labels preferred to negotiate licensing agreements. In the U.K. Prestige was issued on Esquire and Savoy on London. In France Prestige was issued on Barclay and Savoy on Ducretet Thomson. So no direct imports of these labels. Blue Note had a licensing agreement with French and U.K. Vogue for their 10″ albums, which was not extended into the 12″ period. Thus direct imports of Blue Notes for the whole of Western Europe.
Of course, European collectors who missed out initially on some items, worked with the likes of Leavitt, Simonian, Barr and Setlik to fill the holes. But it is my conviction that the bulk of the major European collections has its origins in direct local purchases. These treasures are kept in a secretive way, a typical European collector will be discrete. No noise!
I have known a guy who would never leave his 10.000 collection unattended. Either he would go out and his wife stay at home, or the other way around.
For the dealers, like Paris Jazz Corner, the challenge is how to detect those hidden treasures which come available every now and then as part of an heritage. Lately they went as far as Lausanne in Switzerland to unearth an extraordinary collection, which could have ended on a flea market.
At the time “Blue Trane” was released, Blue Note did not use an innersleeve with pictures of other records. The inner sleeve was white!
Truls, you are absolutely right. The problem with inners is that they are easily interchanged. Worse even, some collectors would by purpose put the printed one as a replacement for the original blank.
I think the main takeaway of this discussion is that rare jazz titles are simply more visible in overseas auctions because they are fetching higher prices, hence are gaining more attention. This has nothing to do with cultural ignorance. From my own digging experiences here in the States over the past 25 years, I noticed that there are plenty of original pressings of rare records to be found over here. They are usually cheaper, either sold by records stores for sub-eBay rates and, if you’re lucky, in flea markets, yard or estate sales when you can still find a real bargain. I think the major difference is the condition of the vinyl. Collectibility of jazz vinyl has always played a more important role to overseas buyers because 1. jazz records weren’t as easily available and affordable due to their imported status and 2. they were more valuable because they were considered a cultural artifact, while here in the States for a long time they were simple commodities that you used to play music. Bottom line, many overseas collectors took better care of their records for said reasons, also because they likely paid higher prices, which in return created a higher demand for a cleaner product and even higher prices. Record store culture is also a big factor, anyone who has been to Disk Union knows that. Here in the States, you literally get your fingers dusty when digging, while in countries like Japan, stores are an almost clinical environment where records are properly cleaned and filed, always in high quality protective covers, etc. All that care and attention to detail comes with a price. This is just my personal theory on this, I may be wrong about some or all of it.
Great discussions…good reading …and learning.
I also think of it as a listening perspective, separate from the prices collectors today are willing to pay. There are open ears all over the world, and in a lot of cases young people inspired by records or by live performances on every continent have gone out to make their own music, resulting in some truly astounding jazz from other places than the US.
The other demographic factors are that 1) people just don’t move around that much in Europe, and 2) do not have a habit for acquiring and having as much “stuff” in general as Americans do. So, collections are sitting safe and clean for decades in the same dwelling, as opposed to be moved around, thrown in damp basements, leaking garages and garden sheds to make space for the next cool thing that comes to market.
I’m surprised that nobody has commented that the cover is second art, not the original.
Another problem is the grime around the spindle hole, indicating the record has been well-played.
As far as prices go, we can thank Japan for the high value of vintage Blue Notes. They were the true connoisseurs, decades before Americans caught on.
I think I have to agree with Woody here although my experience is also anecdotal. I first opened my used record store in the 70s. I carried all types of music, not just jazz, and in hindsight I must confess to being extremely ignorant about the finer points of reading labels and dead wax. My main criteria was is it in or out of print. Could you get it at the Tower Records across the street or not.
We soon experienced what every used store does. We were visited by dealers from all over the world (including the US), and while they were always quite polite, it was up to us to learn from what they were buying and what they were paying, except when it came to Jazz. A Japanese dealer handed me a thick folder of titles including data on the labels and RVG stamps (and in the case of Blue Note the p or ear stamp). He also had a price next to each piece as to what he would pay. The only stipulation was they had to be in excellent condition. I still have the folder somewhere, and while the prices would seem quaint today, at the time, they were revelatory. Leon and the LA dealers would not pay those prices. The only ones besides the Japanese were the English and Europeans dealers and (mostly) foreign collectors. I would say well over 75% or all our collectable Jazz went overseas. We set up a separate room for collectors items and it became one of our trademark attractions.
Yes what is said about European collections are true. Sometimes there surfaces some really extraordinary collections. About 6 or 7 years ago there was a local collection of more or less the whole Blue Note range both monos and stereos from a serious collector in Stockholm who started early. All in EX or better.
It was crazy.
A local shop purchased the collection after a bidding scenario and put the best stuff out in record fares (Jönköping) and some stuff in the shop. I bought some but I was not ready for the heavy hitters at that time.
Curious about Paul’s observation of this not being an original cover. For the sake of learning, how is it determined to not be original, if that is the case?