Breaking the Bank
Back to the insanity. There were a lot of comments on this record on the previous post, but let’s just put it in here for the record, slight pun intended: Hank Mobley, Blue Note 1568. This was the one that had the New York 23 on one side, satisfying the most precise collectors of original pressings. There was definitely debate over the condition, but it seemed like the cover was at least VG++ and the vinyl was probably VG++, although not everyone would agree with that. Where everyone would agree, I presume, is that this one fetched quite a high price: $5,223.45. That’s not the highest price we’ve ever seen for this, or any other record, but it’s right up there in the Jazz Collector Price Guide.
As staggering as I find the Mobley, this one, to me, is even more telling of the state of jazz collecting in this era of eBay: Sonny Clark, Cool Struttin’, Blue Note 1588. As I noted previously, this record was in G condition. To me, G is unplayable: I Wouldn’t put it on the turntable. The cover was VG. I was certainly surprised that someone would be willing to pay $661 for a record that would probably not be played. And that was, indeed, the highest bid. I was even more surprised that the potential buyer wasn’t even allowed to buy the record at that price because it did not meet the seller’s reserve. Strange days, indeed.
the cool struttin’ is just silliness. i can understand wanting a copy just to HAVE it, G or not, but not for that money.
and the mobley… well, it’s a good copy and the seller did some good work with pictures, audio, etc. if i had the spare scratch, i’d pay 5,000 for that. but i don’t. not even close.
I would never pay $5,000 for any record. That’s just complete nonsense. Life has meaning beyond perfect records.
Further nonsense: it wasn’t at all perfect.
The only possible reason for paying that sum (other than having money to burn) would be that you believe you can turn it around for an even greater sum – in other words, you believe that the present increasing craze for (esp) early Blue Notes will continue. That could be right, but I certainly wouldn’t count on it.
Al
Your price guide lists $5600 for the 1568 in 2012, but that one was M-/M-
After reading Al’s last post, I contacted the seller about this copy of Sonny Clark’s ‘Cool Strutin’ BN 1588 on Saturday to try and get confirmation on the Side-2 label address. Sadly, there was no response. Possibly because they have something to hide, who knows.
Generally speaking, this one was re-pressed quite a bit due to its popularity, and can often be found with the original cover (second colour variation as per Fred’s book) but with a later address on one of the sides, along with the original address DG, RVG, ear etc. on the other. The first copy of this classic that I ever bought cost me $500 and was in -M condition, original cover address, heavy vinyl, both sides DG, RVG Ear. But only the second side had the original address. The first side had the New York label instead. Definitely a great play-grade copy nevertheless. I guess at the end of the day, it’s always worth the time to double check these days…
I contacted Sun666 the struttin seller and found him to be rather rude when i asked a couple questions. Oh well thats ebay.
I totally buy a nice NY label w/ear of Struttin if I could find one for the right price.
Me too Mike! Hearing the tale of the number of represses is actually encouraging as I will not be spending 1st pressing money anytime soon. I mentioned it on another thread but his Davis Cup (also graded G) didn’t hit reserve at $320. I’m really curious what these reserves on filler records could possibly be.
joe: indeed it does. but that seems to be the price these days. if you want it, you have to buy it!
Nah, just hold back and show these sellers that we are not THAT desperate.
In about 15 years you can get my `struttin` to improve my old-age pension but no way before. I hope the prices will increase for only the sky is the limit ! What will be with new collectors from Russia, Asia or Near East ? I think there´ll be enough money for gamblers who buy today…
Man, if you want investments, buy baseball hall of fame uniforms. Leave the records to the rest of us who appreciate the sound and not the fury.
but we should leave the uniforms to the people who appreciate the caked-in dirt!
Someone else got a Hank steal!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hank-Mobley-Self-Titled-BLP-1560-57-Deep-Groove-LP-/181338498855?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item2a389de727
“reportedly only 300 were made.”
Above quote lifted from link Clifford provided.
I swear in the past 40 years I’ve seen at least 100-150 come up for sale on various auction lists and now eBay. And I know of at least 25 folks who own it. Doesn’t seem that rare anymore.
I think some of those 100 have been turned over a few times. But yes, 300 seems low to me. It is far from a holy grail or anything, from what I can tell.
Hi Everyone,
I smell a bubble. It get’s larger and larger. When is it going to burst?
When it does, it will be loud…..
BN 1568 anyone ?
Just checked popsike to count how much times 1568 has been listed compared to 4089 (i choosed this one because one of my favourite babies)
original 1568 has been listed 11 times between 01/2013 and 01/2014
original (mono or stereo, ear) 4089 has been listed 15 times between the same timeframe
OK. So I am going to wade in here. I’m the purchaser of the Mobley 1568 New York 23. I’ve seen some pretty snarky sh*t here written about the purchase, so a couple of things. First, The What, and then second, The Why.
1.) The What. The album arrived, well packed. Carefully reviewed. Original, to be sure (not a later Japanese redo). The cover is quite lovely (on a G/VG/VG+/EX or VG++/NM/M scale) and I would place it firmly as an EX/VG++, veering upwards towards NM rather than downwards to VG+. After careful cleaning with my VPI, the album (side one) would be a solid EX/VG++ and that’s it. Album (side two) would also be an EX/VG++, but veering upwards towards NM rather than downwards to VG+. I can now say that the digital samples on ebay were fun to listen to, but gave no real indication of the album quality after cleaning, so anyone who was basing their judgment from those samples only had limited information. She’s a real beauty, and I’m quite pleased.
2.) The Why. I have looked at about five or six BLP 1568 NY 23 albums over the past four years that met my condition criteria (I looked at many more, but their condition immediately disqualified them from further consideration). In the first two or three cases, my attitude was ‘oh, too expensive, I’ll just wait’. And then, of course, the price rose – significantly. In the latter cases, the condition still wasn’t quite what I desired. As to the price paid, well, in my case, I have just decided that while I waited another 2 – 3 years (or more) to see what happened, the price might go up, or it might go down. But even the price drops to half of what I paid ($2,600 – which I do not believe will actually happen for this specific album) I look at it this way – if I wait for two years to save the extra $2,600, that’s a savings of $1,300 annually, or amortized about $3.60/day (just over the two year period). So is it worth the price of one Starbucks coffee a day for the next couple of years to own the recording I want now, as opposed to later? Yes. And who knows – another, better version that meets my criteria might come up in two months. It might also not show up for four more years. There’s no way to know. But what I do know is that this one is on my shelf *now*, and that’s worth $3.60 today to me.
And that’s assuming the record is only actually worth $2,600, and I only wait two years to find another that meets all my criteria. If the actual value is higher (or even goes up from here!), or if I had to wait even longer, my amortized cost goes down – significantly – and makes me even happier.
And no, I didn’t buy it for “investment” to resell, and yes, I do actually play my Blue Notes.
@Caroline, thank you for explanation. What is you opinion about this particular MObley session ?
Caroline, thanks for posting, it’s always nice to hear from folks that actually acquire these holy grails!
Hi Caroline, congratulations on winning the Hank Mobley BN 1568 in such lovely condition. Yes, the value of it can swing both ways in years to come, one never knows. It might turn out to be a great investment after all and you get to listen to it!
I uber-love the breaking down of the wall between the auction and the JC critics. It’s not merely the symbolism of Caroline’s act, it is the rationale that she provided, one I’ve never witnessed while eavesdropping on the veteran posters on the site. While I’m considering the quality of that record being played, can you share the system you’re playing it on? Congratulations!
I eagerly await Caroline’s answer to Michel’s question, which is to me the important one. I am perfectly willing to agree that, given today’s Mobley market, she got herself an album of quite reasonable value. My question remains: is this session by this artist worth paying that kind of money for? Is the market price for the albums headlined by Mobley justified, musically speaking, in comparison to, for example,the many Blue Notes (Messengers, Horace, etc)featuring Mobley, while not headlined by him? And the answer previously provided to the effect that the Mobley sides are “so” much rarer than those others does not seem to be confirmed by the number of offerings I see on e-bay.
Hi Michel: I find this particular Mobley session enjoyable, but certainly not his most elegant or sophisticated.
Hi Daryl: In short, all McIntosh (2505/MX 112/T10) + Klipsch Cornwalls.
Hi Earl: The point here is that I collect Blue Note. A solid 1568 original first press New York 23 is one of the only albums from the entire 1500 series that I didn’t have one of yet. I have all the others you mention in NM or better (both cover + album) and in some cases, I have duplicates (or triplicates). This 1568 was just filling a rare empty slot in my collection…
Table?
Hi all,
Thank you Caroline for sharing your experience. It sounds like you are a “completist” collector when it comes to Blue Notes – you want them all and in super condition too 😉
Therefore I understand that Earl’s comment and Michel question is not so important in your eyes. The record worth is not dependable on the music’s quality. You would not say that “1568 is not my favourite Mobley so I would pay only $2000 for it. If it was my favourite BN I would be inclined to pay $5000+ for it”. I mean if the music is the most important why not just buy a well mastered CD of the session? Nevermind, collecting BN original pressings is a hobby as good as any right? Are you into the 4000-series too?
How did it all start for you? I would love to hear more and to visit you on a site like dustygroove.com would be most interesting for sure 😉
I mean how many female Blue Note collectors is there in the world and how many care so much about condition and the hifi-aspect too? Not many I assure you.
I can only guess that any microline stylus you play that copy with will still be tainted with the mild distortion from groove wear that I heard in the eBay audio clips, which, strictly speaking, makes it a strong VG at best in my book, regardless of surface noise and visual grade. Feel free to prove me wrong by posting a needle drop somewhere and sharing the link. Seriously, it would be a fun and unique experiment if you did so. PS – I want to hear the inner grooves 😉
Caroline…great response. Can you loan me a
few of the doubles, i will bring them back, honest!
If you have the money, what a wonderful way of enjoying it. The question begs though. what you gonna do when you have them all???
Hi Caroline. Interesting that you use all Mcintosh equipment to play those beautiful originals. Are you a mono kind of gal? If so I would suggest that you get yourself a true mono cartridge like a Miyajima Zero. It’s only a fraction of the cost of your 1568. I have the Miyajima Premium Mono Be mkII and they sound so much better! I have one piece of Mcintosh gear in my set up. I guess we are all green with envy to know that you have them all! Now what can I do to entice you to part with some of your spares? Would you be interested to trade? I guess it’s hard since you already have everything. Would you be interested in other jazz labels perhaps?
Hi Shaft: Yes, I am a completist. This collection started out as my fathers (both he and I played – Dad played tenor sax, I play piano). It was something we shared, just the two of us, until his sudden and premature death four years ago. These albums and music are not ‘mine’, they are ‘ours’. I also collect 4000’s – but only up to and until Don Cherry’s “Complete Communion” (BN 4226). As to the gender thing, you guys could definitely use more hot chicks on this site, that much is clear! 😉
Hi Rich: Distortion with pivoting tonearms is a fact of life (or geometry). Hyperelliptical/microridge and other long, narrow styli eliminates a great deal of that distortion (as opposed to conical) as does accurate set-up. Using a cart with a fineline or microline stylus can also help. The distortion you heard on the ebay audio clip was due to a craptacular tonearm and cart. As I wrote above, once home with me, and cleaned, it was an entirely different physical experience (this applies to albums as well as men). So that’s what you get for judging the album quality based on that ebay recording – shame, shame, shame!
Hi Adamski: I simply plan on doing what I’ve always done – care for and enjoy them.
Hi Ng: I have a number of different arms and carts that I interchange as I feel is required to optimize the audio based on the specifics of what I am listening to. I don’t believe ‘one size fits all’ in this respect. My Dad was a cart/arm addict – always coming home with new toys to try…
Perhaps I haven’t made my Mobley-point as clearly as I wanted. This is what I was trying to say:
If, as most of us seem to agree, 1568 is not especially memorable musically speaking, and if my suspicions of sale numbers are born out & the album is not particularly rare, there can only be one remaining reason for its huge price: a present-day Mobley craze that may not last. But if Caroline or anyone else wants to pay that kind of money, especially for completeness sake, who am I to gainsay it?
More importantly, why haven’t I been able to meet a woman like Caroline?
Al and Caroline can we get a story on your collection? Id love to see it and i think it would make a great couple of posts.
Caroline: The new “Jutta Hipp” of JazzCollector.com 😉
.
Post that needle drop somewhere! I really wanna hear this record on a good setup!
Congratulations Caroline. Very nice to hear your story. I would implore you to visit some of the Liberty era Blue Notes. Even if they are not as collectable, there is some fantastic music in that era.
All This being (well) said, i still don’t understand why Mobley 1568 is worth 5000 + $ ans Don Sleet’s “All Members” is worth 50 $.
Michel, that’s easy to answer 😉
It is simply because it is the going rate for 1568 that we collectors see as the price we must expect to pay for this particular LP.
Simple as that.
If we continue to pay around that price – the price level will be kept up.
Don Sleet is an excellent session but: 1. Not Blue Note label.
2. Not so famous player.
3. LP not in so high demand as to cause bidding wars.
Caroline..hahaha..Welcome!!!
it seems you and your fantastic curves (LPs) have sent the jazz collector community into a spin (pun intended) ….
I’m seriously thinking of dumping the good Mrs. Adamski and trading her up for a Mint condition Caroline (if you bring your collection). I feel a little duped as long before I got hitched I was told a ‘Caroline’ just did not exist!
Don’t agree with the criticism aimed at 1568.
It’s a great record, it may not be as cultured as some Hank’s but gee they are good sides…
“Mighty Moe and Joe” wow such raw bop, Hanks sound is great in MHO and the tone RVG captures on Curtis Porter’s Alto…Damn!
“Falling in Love with Love” melts me every time, beautiful….and then that knock out cover!!!! Just a classic the whole package.””””””
Don Sleets “All members” is a fantastic session, Jimmy Heath’s Tenor is fantastic, the whole band is a killer and Sleet is beautiful…but alas does not come close to 1568 as a ‘package’.
Just listening “The Mode” by Sonny Red, Jazzland DG NM orange label. What a funky thing ! And with Grant Green !! Far better than his Blue Note output “Out of the Blue”. And well packaged too…Anyway, I agree, Blue Note has these special appeal other labels don’t have. .
Don Sleet – Mobley-ish destiny ? http://www.jazzwax.com/2009/11/david-sleet-on-don-sleet.html
To answer Michel’s query: There are two issues which must be parsed out. One is the issue of value, and the other is the issue of price – two concepts that people seem to either confuse, or terms that people seem to use interchangeably (when these concepts are entirely different but admittedly related matters). Making any kind of value (or qualitative comparison) between Mobley and Sleet is strictly personal – in other words, it’s a matter of taste, and taste (and how it is formed) is essentially a random mechanism. But in terms of their respective price (or the quantitative comparison), it is clear that the 1568 New York 23 (in EX to M condition) is simply a rarer commodity. Unlike taste (which is random) this is an aspect that people can actually compare and determine with some degree of factual accuracy and precision. And that is what drives the price upwards for that specific commodity. It’s precisely the same difference between investing and speculating – a different set of terms that people *also* confuse, or seem to use interchangeably. x Caroline
Crumbs! .. this girl is good!!!
Nuff said.
I guess the only question is just how rare an Ex or better 1568 is. Certainly more so than the Sleet, but I submit (by observation of how many have recently appeared)that it doesn’t appear that much more rare than other 1500 BN’s.
Then there is this:
Oscar Wilde:
“What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
And a sentimentalist, my dear Darlington, is a man who sees an absurd value in everything, and doesn’t know the market place of any single thing.”
Guess that makes many of us cynics.
As i wrote it above, if we trust Popsike, 1568 was auctionned 11 times between 01/2103 and 01/2014. At the same time Don Sleet was auctionned 8 times. It s the demand that makes the difference. Not the rarity.
Earl + Michel: I think there may have been (guessing) 1,500 (+/-) BLP 1568 albums with the New York 23 label created (maybe less). But the truth is that due to time and attrition, I imagine that less than half of that number still exist out in the world. Of those, due to normal wear and tear, I would hazard a guess that less than half of that half exist where both the album cover and album are in VG++/EX condition (or better). So let’s say that there are approximately 300 BLP 1568 in the world that have the New York 23 label *and* are in VG++/EX condition (or better). In all honesty, that’s a pretty small number. Which leads to Michel’s point “…It (i)s (sic) the demand that makes the difference…” Absolutely true. It certainly isn’t supply. It isn’t the sheer availability of more BLP reissues and recordings than ever before that sustains and drives this market. Nor is it quality (we already established above that qualitative judgments are a matter of taste, and since taste is personal and random, it is therefore not quantifiable). The recording itself is no better or worse, and collectors no smarter or dumber than they were a year ago, or for that matter, a decade ago. The force behind it all, quite simply, is increased demand. The reason BLP 1568 New York 23 has kept appreciating is because people were/are trying to buy it. And one reason people are trying to continually buy it is precisely because it is rare, and therefore, quantifiable. Q.E.D. x C
Sorry, but you made several leaps in logic there that I don’t think are justified.When you “guess[ed]” at the production number, the question remains, just how many were produced, and how many other early BN’s were produced in equally small numbers. Without those figures, the rest is guesswork.
The idea that “demand’ is equally important is correct – and my point all along is that the demand for Mobley has been IMHO artificially created. Therefore your final statement, to the effect that the reason people are buying it is, again, based on a guess as to relative rarity.
Hi Earl: Sorry to say, but the ‘leaps in logic’ are yours! I am not “guessing” as to the total production number of BLP albums. The fact is that most Blue Note titles were slow but steady sellers (4,000-6,000 average sales of most titles for the original first pressings). Add to that the fact that most of these were played on chunky tonearms and changers, and many got heavily played, I believe a fair estimate is that maybe a third of these LP discs/album covers survive in VG+ or better condition (and I think that’s being pretty generous). I am being *extremely generous* when I suggest that 1,500 (+/-) BLP 1568 albums with the New York 23 label were created in order to err significantly on the high side. The truth is that if I’m off, it’s actually significantly lower. I think the relative rarity of the BLP 1568 New York 23 can be quite factually deduced. x C
I don’t get it Caroline – you seem so logical otherwise
Your figures for early BN productions are probably within reason, as is your estimate of how many were ruined by bad equipment – as is your estimate of how many survived in VG+ or better condition
You have not demonstrated, however, why the Mobleys in general (and 1568 in particular) are so much less likely than other early BN’s to so survive (and therefore of greater rarity).
Once again: most or perhaps all early BN’s are subject to these low production figures, damage by poor equipment, etc, etc – that does not explain why the Mobleys are so much more rare than other 1500’s
as to the NY23 thing – I know what Cohen says about which is supposed to be original – I have yet to see any definitive proof that the 23’s are entitled to the “original” label, while the non-23’s are not – I would think both labels were produced about the same time
Earl: We will simply have to agree to disagree. My father (who was involved in the recording business) told me the basics of the NY 23 label as he understood it. The NY 23 label is a modest variant as compared to the overall (already modest) run. If you don’t like that information, it’s fine by me. Your counter-argument is essentially based on….well….nothing at all, as far as I can tell, so I have no idea why you’re choosing to hammer so hard on this specific issue. C
I reckon we can safely say that original BN prices were established by the Japanese collectors. They have done tons of research about the label and the relative rarity of each title and have written tons of books about them. They are light years ahead when it comes to collecting BN and most of the vg++ or better copies have landed in their collectors’ hands mostly. Their mega record store Disk Union even publishes a regular want list and the amount paid for such rarities. Looking at what they are willing to pay for BN1568 we can conclude that it is a very much sought after title and definitely a rare one as well.