Comments on: Breaking the Bank

By: Michel

Michel — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 11:54:15 +0000

I think larry Cohn would have an advice in this debate. Were are you Larry ? We’d appreciate your contribution.

@ Caroline : i do not agree to your previous thread, for the reasons Earl wrote. Anyway, your contributions are very interesting and i praise you for that.

By: Shaft

Shaft — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 10:06:05 +0000

BN collecting is indeed very interesting 😉
I don’t see that Caroline and Earl’s opinions are so far from another really 😉

I personally don’t think that 1568 is so much rarer than the rest of the original 1st pressings of the 1500-series (maybe with the exception of Silver and Blakey – were they not pressed in higher numbers on the first run?)

As said rarity IS a factor but rarity alone does not explain the whole price picture for 1568. I would say it is rarity + demand. The demand is depending on how much collectors/investors are willing to pay for an LP.

Also an important factor concerning demand is how much a title genrerally sells for. Now we have popsike and ebay letting us see quite transparently how much the going rate is. Why would anyone sell a EX+ 1568 for less than $5K for other reasons than ignorance. This is for example shown as when I go to my regular physical shop the manager ALWAYS consult popsike before he sets a price on a record. Popsike/eBay has done that like it or not for us collectors.

Would Caroline for instance had paid $5K if there had been no previous sales in that $-region. Don’t think so 😉

By: Ng Chee Kia

Ng Chee Kia — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 05:54:42 +0000

I reckon we can safely say that original BN prices were established by the Japanese collectors. They have done tons of research about the label and the relative rarity of each title and have written tons of books about them. They are light years ahead when it comes to collecting BN and most of the vg++ or better copies have landed in their collectors’ hands mostly. Their mega record store Disk Union even publishes a regular want list and the amount paid for such rarities. Looking at what they are willing to pay for BN1568 we can conclude that it is a very much sought after title and definitely a rare one as well.

By: Caroline

Caroline — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 02:21:12 +0000

Earl: We will simply have to agree to disagree. My father (who was involved in the recording business) told me the basics of the NY 23 label as he understood it. The NY 23 label is a modest variant as compared to the overall (already modest) run. If you don’t like that information, it’s fine by me. Your counter-argument is essentially based on….well….nothing at all, as far as I can tell, so I have no idea why you’re choosing to hammer so hard on this specific issue. C

By: Earl

Earl — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 01:47:13 +0000

I don’t get it Caroline – you seem so logical otherwise

Your figures for early BN productions are probably within reason, as is your estimate of how many were ruined by bad equipment – as is your estimate of how many survived in VG+ or better condition

You have not demonstrated, however, why the Mobleys in general (and 1568 in particular) are so much less likely than other early BN’s to so survive (and therefore of greater rarity).

Once again: most or perhaps all early BN’s are subject to these low production figures, damage by poor equipment, etc, etc – that does not explain why the Mobleys are so much more rare than other 1500’s

as to the NY23 thing – I know what Cohen says about which is supposed to be original – I have yet to see any definitive proof that the 23’s are entitled to the “original” label, while the non-23’s are not – I would think both labels were produced about the same time

By: Caroline

Caroline — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 01:04:36 +0000

Hi Earl: Sorry to say, but the ‘leaps in logic’ are yours! I am not “guessing” as to the total production number of BLP albums. The fact is that most Blue Note titles were slow but steady sellers (4,000-6,000 average sales of most titles for the original first pressings). Add to that the fact that most of these were played on chunky tonearms and changers, and many got heavily played, I believe a fair estimate is that maybe a third of these LP discs/album covers survive in VG+ or better condition (and I think that’s being pretty generous). I am being *extremely generous* when I suggest that 1,500 (+/-) BLP 1568 albums with the New York 23 label were created in order to err significantly on the high side. The truth is that if I’m off, it’s actually significantly lower. I think the relative rarity of the BLP 1568 New York 23 can be quite factually deduced. x C

By: Earl

Earl — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 21:43:11 +0000

Sorry, but you made several leaps in logic there that I don’t think are justified.When you “guess[ed]” at the production number, the question remains, just how many were produced, and how many other early BN’s were produced in equally small numbers. Without those figures, the rest is guesswork.
The idea that “demand’ is equally important is correct – and my point all along is that the demand for Mobley has been IMHO artificially created. Therefore your final statement, to the effect that the reason people are buying it is, again, based on a guess as to relative rarity.

By: Caroline

Caroline — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 17:07:02 +0000

Earl + Michel: I think there may have been (guessing) 1,500 (+/-) BLP 1568 albums with the New York 23 label created (maybe less). But the truth is that due to time and attrition, I imagine that less than half of that number still exist out in the world. Of those, due to normal wear and tear, I would hazard a guess that less than half of that half exist where both the album cover and album are in VG++/EX condition (or better). So let’s say that there are approximately 300 BLP 1568 in the world that have the New York 23 label *and* are in VG++/EX condition (or better). In all honesty, that’s a pretty small number. Which leads to Michel’s point “…It (i)s (sic) the demand that makes the difference…” Absolutely true. It certainly isn’t supply. It isn’t the sheer availability of more BLP reissues and recordings than ever before that sustains and drives this market. Nor is it quality (we already established above that qualitative judgments are a matter of taste, and since taste is personal and random, it is therefore not quantifiable). The recording itself is no better or worse, and collectors no smarter or dumber than they were a year ago, or for that matter, a decade ago. The force behind it all, quite simply, is increased demand. The reason BLP 1568 New York 23 has kept appreciating is because people were/are trying to buy it. And one reason people are trying to continually buy it is precisely because it is rare, and therefore, quantifiable. Q.E.D. x C

By: Michel

Michel — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:15:21 +0000

As i wrote it above, if we trust Popsike, 1568 was auctionned 11 times between 01/2103 and 01/2014. At the same time Don Sleet was auctionned 8 times. It s the demand that makes the difference. Not the rarity.

By: Earl

Earl — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 15:33:46 +0000

I guess the only question is just how rare an Ex or better 1568 is. Certainly more so than the Sleet, but I submit (by observation of how many have recently appeared)that it doesn’t appear that much more rare than other 1500 BN’s.
Then there is this:

Oscar Wilde:
“What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
And a sentimentalist, my dear Darlington, is a man who sees an absurd value in everything, and doesn’t know the market place of any single thing.”

Guess that makes many of us cynics.