Catching Up (And We Mean Up!) on Rare Jazz Vinyl
Here are a couple of nice $1,000 records we were watching on eBay: Dizzy Reece, Progress Report, Tempo TAP 9. This was an original U.K. pressing that was listed in excellent condition for the vinyl and great condition for the cover and, even though those terms are not precisely Goldmine-approved, you get the sense from the description and pictures that the record was in extremely nice condition. This one sold for about $1,025. Also, Lee Morgan, The Cooker, Blue Note 1578. This was an original West 63rd Street pressing listed in M- condition for the record and cover. We said “under normal circumstances” this record could set a new high water mark for the Cooker. What we meant was that we felt the pandemic would perhaps be dampening prices for high-end records. We were wrong. This record did set a new high at $1,625. So much for my theories and hypotheses—so far at least.
We had two experts weigh in on the John Coltrane autograph from the album Coltrane Live at Birdland, Impulse A-50. The sense from both experts was that the authenticity was questionable at best. I was persuaded by the argument from d_notes about the Sharpie pens and what would have happened to those signatures if they had really been signed in 1966, so I came down on the “probably not original” side. Not that I would have bid anyway without some level of authentication. Anyway, as you may have seen, there were 11 bidders, 33 bids and a ton of action from snipers at the end of the auction. The final price was $2,038.
Which leads me to another question. Back when I was doing eBay regularly and buying records I used BidNip as a service to snipe my bids. I haven’t used it in a while because I haven’t bought records in a while. Is that still a viable service? For those of you who bid regularly, is there a different sniping service that you would recommend? Is sniping still considered legal and ethical? Have the rules changed in the past couple of years? One of the reasons I ask these questions has to do with Tina Brooks, True Blue, Blue Note 4041. This is another record I had mentioned in my previous post, in the context that the record was VG- and the cover was VG+ and I have a nice VG+ copy of the vinyl with no cover. I figured I could perhaps upgrade, but when the bidding got into the $800 range, it become beyond what I thought would be reasonable, for me. Anyway, the final price was $1,590.55, which, even in this market, seems a lot for a VG- record. I mean, I don’t even put VG- records on my turntable. But, the market is the market.
Finally, there was a seller who had some nice 10-inch LPs at what I thought were reasonable prices. For example, Thelonious Monk, Genius of Modern Music, Volume 2, Blue Note 5009. This was an original Lexington Avenue pressing listed in VG+ condition for both the record and the cover. The start price was $259 and there were no bids. The record is now listed for $255 as a Buy-it-Now price. There was also The Amazing Bud Powell, Volume 2, Blue Note 5041. The record was VG+ and the cover was VG. Love the cover on this one. The original price was $295 and there were no takers. The item has been relisted for a Buy-it-Now price of $275. Perhaps we are seeing something happening to the market for 10-inch LPs? I choose not to speculate, having been wrong consistently pretty much every time I try to gauge the market.
Thanks Al ! I am still shocked that someone would pay so much for such a highly suspect Coltrane LP. I guess it’s true what they say about a fool and their money… At the end of the day, no authentication service will ever be able to guarantee a signature is truly authentic with absolute certainty even with all their fancy gadgets. All anyone can really do is provide insights based on other known examples along with a variety of common indicators and tells to justify the odds that it may be authentic.
It’s just gotten so rampant that unless someone was actually there at the time of signing and managed to get a photo / video proof its really hard to be certain these days. Even then, I’d personally want to see the negatives, but these too can still be faked. Especially when you see those eBay posts by professional autograph hounds selling in-person autographs with photos of the object being signed outside a venue somewhere. Quite often the photo they provide isn’t even the same as the actual object being sold or of the person selling it. Whats worse is when forgers use other obvious forgeries as their signature references !
This is generally why I stopped buying autographs off eBay… Besides, half the fun is meeting these artists in person and walking away with a meaningful experience. (Getting them to pose for a photo and sign your first pressing is the icing on the cake of course.)
As for sniping… Never tried it myself. I always figured if someone really wants an item bad enough (and has deep enough pockets to back it up) chances are they will just drop a pretty over-the-top untouchable bid in the last 10 seconds of the auction anyway… Then beg their wives forgiveness for pissing away the kids college fund later ! 😉
p.s. – …I think I changed my Jazz Collector ID from Don-Lucky to d_notes without realizing it. Oh well, you guys probably know who I am either way ! Cheers.
Perhaps a stuck-at-home quarantine melt-up explains these prices?
Lower tier records feel bid up as well. Perhaps new collectors who got their start in the Tone Poet/BN80 reissues?
Then there is Instagram, mentioned in these comments before. A “grail” now has the added value of scoring social approval, making new collector friends and maybe getting records from them. Its not simply about your isolated experience of the music and sleeve. There is a scalable social currency to a record now that is worth paying a premium for.
I do use “esnipe” for placing bids on Auctions. The primary benefit is I can go places and do other things while the auction is ending. It’s worth the 1% charge. I see no ethical concern whether I’m sitting there waiting for the minutes to count down or using a sniping service. It doesn’t matter much when a person bids. The only slight advantage in waiting until the last 10 seconds to bid is that you don’t show your “Intent” until Closing time. And you either get the item or you don’t. I win some & I lose some.
My two cents on Sniping. Have no issues with it. A bid is a bid is a bid. That being said , the only one that really benefits for the most part of course is the Seller. Hoping for a last min snipe that will result in a hop scotch upward trajectory in the last 5 secs. I don’t really buy on the bay anymore mainly due to the crazy market out there but when I did , I would snipe on something I really wanted. Win some Lose some.
Just one quick story relating to Snipe bidding and resultant price. A friend of mine wanted this super rare Garage LP from Texas on a obscure label. Seller had auction ending on a Saturday around 2 PM , which is not the smartest time to end auction. Anyway , it was at $75 with 3 mins left. He had a Snipe bid for $350 just to be sure and thought he would come in around $150 +. Last min he changed it to $500. Boom , auction ends and he loss to another person for $510 I believe. They were the only two bidders going at it.
Now my question has always been was that record worth $75+ or $510 merely because of two last min Snipes. (Really one if you think about it.)
The Dizzy Reece record looks great, and the seller seems to be using the “excellent” grade responsibly. I have a difficult relationship with this grade.
This EX grade is, as far as I know, one of the “official” gradations on the British record grading scale by the UK’s Record Collector magazine. It seems similar to the US VG+ grade based on the fact that there are a couple of major grades higher than EX, and, unfortunately, EX is as abused as VG+.
About 18 years ago, I decided to collect some of the original Stones and the Beatles on 1960s UK Decca and Parlophone and ordered a bunch of LPs graded EX and EX+ from a web-list seller in the UK. I was shocked to receive VG- to VG looking records. The seller vigorously defended that those were OK for the EX grading. After a few more tries with similar results, I was done buying from the UK. I have been much more successful sourcing high grade copies from US sellers over time, which typically were notably cheaper than similarly clean copies tended to sell from the UK.
My experience with UK E grade is quite different from Ilya’s. In the last couple of years I bought a number of E graded albums in the UK. With one exception, they were equivalent to US NM.
The problem arises when a UK seller adopts the Goldmine system without mentioning it.
Re sniping, I think it resolves the problem of getting up in the middle of the night to make final bids with wet hands. This is adrenalin spent for nothing. And how to explain your sudden absence in the middle of the night to your wife?
Regarding 10″ albums. I think they represent a unique era in the development of recorded jazz. Take the example of Miles’ three 10″ albums for Blue Note. Each album had its own flavour. A while ago I decided to ditch the two 12″ reissues and just keep the originals. It is now my policy to go for the originals on 10″ only. It is a perfect way of slimming down my collection.
I’m with Rudolph on UK grading (but I live in the UK, so YMMV). Most of my purchases locally have been successful – especially a recent batch of Esquires.
Rudolph – if you’re ditching those 12-inches, some of may be interested in them… 🙂
Unrelated Vinyl Mystery
I have a PRISTINE original pressing of NJLP 8225 (Quiet Kenny) on the Purple and Silver New Jazz Bergenfield labels, with the WIDE DEEP GROOVE on both sides as noted in the reference pictures above, RVG(stamped) on the deadwax as noted in the reference pictures above, original catalog number/Matrix code etched in the deadwax as noted in the reference pictures above, but CURIOUSLY I do not think it is an Abbey pressing. It is not made with any recycled vinyl (no hiss, the fidelity is fantastic) I also used a dermatoscope [50x magnification using polarized light to remove surface light diffraction just as the photos did above] [I am a Dermatologist in the United States] and was not able to identify any of the stigmata noted above in this post that denotes a disc with recycled vinyl.
Interestingly, there is NO AB etched into the deadwax parallel to the label in the immediate deadwax next to the label’s edge (nor anywhere else in the deadwax) on either neither, nor is there is an inner concentric ring pressed present around the spindle hole present one or both sides (not present anywhere).
My take is this is a non-Abbey, non-recycled, concurrent first pressing at an unidentified pressing plant. The only CLUE that may be helpful is that there is an “8J” hand etched lightly into the deadwax, far removed from removed from any other characters, symbols or deadwax writing in the deadwax. This lightly hand-etched, small “8J” is present in the deadwax on both sides of the disc, and only present once per side.
Please, thoughts!
Martin: my ditching started with BLP 1501 and the last was 1537. They are all gone, 16 in total.
Not to change the subject….To all you jazz hounds, could you name 1 album in your collection that deserves to be in the $1000.00 bin but because it’s not on one of the holy grail labels it falls through the cracks ? Come on now, everybody has scratched their head at some time wondering why nobody else shares your enthusiasm for that l.p. ? Please be advised that no judging will follow ! Speak up and enlighten us!
Now you’ve got me thinking Art ! …I would have to say, that my 1954 original 10″ first pressing of Billie Holiday At Jazz At The Philharmonic on Clef Records deserves +$1000 bin status. The earliest pressings were made with a misprint on the iconic cover that incorrectly spelled her name “Billy “. This is just a great live recording with a hauntingly beautiful David Stone Martin cover illustration. It is rare to find one for sale in decent condition, and I often wonder how many misprints where actually pressed before it was caught and corrected.
Note: A “signed” copy just sold on eBay for $852.99 through the Jazz Record Center… Personally, the real value was the album itself… I suspect the price would have been higher if the signature was actually authentic.
Art Klemner : many albums. Starting with many Riversides…Jazzland…Savoy.
Maybe Randomly…Don Sleet” All Members”…
Art Farmers on Argo…
Harold Land albums…
Curtis Counce…
Sonny Stitt…
Art,
Uggh , so many………..
But I will put one out there that I think should definitely be on that list : Serge Chaloff ?– Blue Serge
Of course, Blue Serge and any one of the three Lee Konitz at Storyville, Lennie Niehaus’ ‘the Sextet’ on Contemporary, Jimmy Giuffre’s ‘the Four Brothers Sound’ and all Lee Konitz, Marsh and Tristano on Atlantic, Benny Golson’s first album, a Sextet, for Riverside, Warne Marsh on Mode, Monk and the Jazz Messengers on Atlantic, Chet Baker’s Ensemble and Jack Montrose Sextet on P.J. , Mulligan Farmer qrt on Columbia, etc, etc
Booker Little on Time, Kenny Dorham on Time, Benny Golson Turning point on Mercury, Paul Bley Open to love Ecm, Dave Holland Conference of the birds on Ecm, Cannonball Adderley Know what I mean Riverside,Kenny Burrell Guitar forms Verve,Archie Shepp Four for Trane and many many more…
Just a couple from me: Curtis Amy/Dupree Bolton – Katanga! on Pacific and Clifford Jordan – Glass Bead Games on Strata-East.
And one more that I thought of: any of the Max Roach/Clifford Brown Emarcy LPs.
I forgot Full house by Wes Montgomery
Lee Morgan’s Take Twelve on Jazzland is the only thing he recorded during his long early-60s drug-related hiatus. It would go for a mint on a different label!
Well, I don’t have many records left after selling most, so of those I kept:
1.Gigi Gryce on Signal
2. Gene Shaw any of his three on Argo, Breakthrough, Debut in Blues or Carnival Sketches.
Well, of course I wish that the records I’m still after stay south of the $1,000 bin…
That said I could see certain things like the Michel Portal on EMI-Pathé getting in there, or the François Tusques Mouloudji LPs — certainly very high quality European free jazz LPs. Though nowhere near as valuable, the Voce del Padrone issue of Gaslini’s “Nuovi Sentimenti” or the original Italian issues of Steve Lacy’s “Disposability” and “Sortie” should be coveted both in terms of scarcity and musical wonders to behold…
But at the end of the day I’d rather the music be accessible, so keeping things at a lower price point is fine by me.
I am glad to see your perspectives on these records. I am certainly glad to note I have a lot of them in my collection. For me? Carl Perkins, Dootone red vinyl.
Lennib, you nailed it with the three Gene Shaw records. I still find it shocking that these are not better known and aren’t more sought out. Breakthrough in particular is as good as Rocky Boyd Quintet’s Ease It, which can sell for close to $1000 in mint condition.
David S., I spent several tine talking and such with Gene Shaw at Old Wells Record Shop on north State in Chicago back in late ‘60’s. He was working as a cook in a diner down the block at the time. Signed his first two lps to me. Learned a lot from him, though I wish I had paid more attention. Too young at the time.
Yeah, that Rocky Boyd lp is nice. Dare I say I used to have it? It’s one I kinda wish I still did.
Geez, “several tine”?!?!!!!
Insert ‘some time’ instead.
Nice story Lenni…
Let’s just hope that not every good jazz album ends upp in the $1000 bin. It would surely be a shame. Surely it was not the intent of the threadstarter Art, but just because an LP does not go for a lot of money it does not mean that it must be better or more appreciated than a cheaper one. One of the charms about this hobby is for me that you can find a very interesting originla LP for $20-30.
My last LP’s like that are Richard Williams “A New Horn in Town” (OG Candid with VG cover) and Four for Jazz & Benny Bailey “A Land of Dolls” (Interchord 2-LP).