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	Comments on: Collectible Jazz Vinyl Through the Years	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Rudolf		</title>
		<link>https://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/collectible-jazz-vinyl-through-the-years/comment-page-2/#comment-410162</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rudolf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2016 08:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jazzcollector.com/?p=6974#comment-410162</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ethan: when Prestige had just moved over from downtown Manhattan to Bergenfield N.J. in 1958, they re-launched the New Jazz label. The artists, cover design (Esmond Edwards), vinyl quality (and initial price - $ 3.98) were all top notch. This situation lasted two to three years. This is my favourite Prestige/NJ period. This corresponds with Prestige 7142 (Soultrane) up to 7191, roughly. Happy to see you on common ground.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ethan: when Prestige had just moved over from downtown Manhattan to Bergenfield N.J. in 1958, they re-launched the New Jazz label. The artists, cover design (Esmond Edwards), vinyl quality (and initial price &#8211; $ 3.98) were all top notch. This situation lasted two to three years. This is my favourite Prestige/NJ period. This corresponds with Prestige 7142 (Soultrane) up to 7191, roughly. Happy to see you on common ground.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rudolf		</title>
		<link>https://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/collectible-jazz-vinyl-through-the-years/comment-page-2/#comment-410161</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rudolf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2016 08:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jazzcollector.com/?p=6974#comment-410161</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[rl1856/rich: loved the deep insight you are sharing with us in your posts.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rl1856/rich: loved the deep insight you are sharing with us in your posts.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rudolf		</title>
		<link>https://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/collectible-jazz-vinyl-through-the-years/comment-page-2/#comment-410160</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rudolf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2016 08:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jazzcollector.com/?p=6974#comment-410160</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Michel: you played your devil&#039;s advocate role very well. I knew you to be non-sectarian.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michel: you played your devil&#8217;s advocate role very well. I knew you to be non-sectarian.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rich		</title>
		<link>https://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/collectible-jazz-vinyl-through-the-years/comment-page-2/#comment-410150</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rich]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2016 06:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jazzcollector.com/?p=6974#comment-410150</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wow, just when I thought Al had forgotten about me! ;) Both this post and the comments have been incredibly insightful. I am especially fascinated by the stories from the senior collectors! It&#039;s interesting to think that a long time ago before CDs, the internet and MP3s, the higher value of rarer records was a natural outgrowth of the simple fact that the only way you were gonna hear that artist/recording was if you had the record--I love that! Today you can hear the MP3 on Spotify or YouTube in a matter of seconds--back then, you *had* to find the record--no other options, no CDs, no format wars in sight! 

Rudolf&#039;s point that today it&#039;s more about the &#039;magic&#039; surrounding these old collectibles than it is about the music makes perfect sense. It&#039;s also interesting to think of a time when Blue Note was &#039;just another jazz label&#039;, though I do think those Blue Note covers would have stood out to me in a record store back then. I agree with Michel that Reid Miles&#039; role in Blue Note&#039;s rise to cult fame might currently be being underestimated. True, he did covers for Prestige, but the Prestige covers often failed to boast the artist&#039;s name in big block letters while being coupled by an intimate photo. In contrast, despite often being very attractive visually, the Prestige covers and album titles were quite random at times and thus failed to identify a &#039;messenger&#039; for the message.

I also find the mythic contrast between the &#039;jam sessions&#039; of Prestige and the &#039;rehearsed&#039; sides of Blue Note to have some sort of base in reality. Generally speaking, Blue Note sessions do sound tighter, and on the contrary, though there are many Prestige sessions that I feel are well produced, I have heard just as many that have that jam session vibe, which at the end of the day doesn&#039;t make as profound a creative statement to me. If I can tell that the band could have been better rehearsed I&#039;ll probably still dig the album but I do notice when an album is well produced, and I&#039;d say that Blue Note albums achieved this with an incredibly high degree of consistency. Put simply, I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any denying that Alfred Lion was a brilliant producer. (Rudolf: Despite the points I just made, I do understand what seems like your frustration with Blue Note&#039;s singular cult status in the world of jazz).

Insane eBay prices never fail to make me laugh, but at this point in my time as a jazz record collector, they never, ever, ever surprise me.

PS: Loved Art Klempner&#039;s post!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, just when I thought Al had forgotten about me! 😉 Both this post and the comments have been incredibly insightful. I am especially fascinated by the stories from the senior collectors! It&#8217;s interesting to think that a long time ago before CDs, the internet and MP3s, the higher value of rarer records was a natural outgrowth of the simple fact that the only way you were gonna hear that artist/recording was if you had the record&#8211;I love that! Today you can hear the MP3 on Spotify or YouTube in a matter of seconds&#8211;back then, you *had* to find the record&#8211;no other options, no CDs, no format wars in sight! </p>
<p>Rudolf&#8217;s point that today it&#8217;s more about the &#8216;magic&#8217; surrounding these old collectibles than it is about the music makes perfect sense. It&#8217;s also interesting to think of a time when Blue Note was &#8216;just another jazz label&#8217;, though I do think those Blue Note covers would have stood out to me in a record store back then. I agree with Michel that Reid Miles&#8217; role in Blue Note&#8217;s rise to cult fame might currently be being underestimated. True, he did covers for Prestige, but the Prestige covers often failed to boast the artist&#8217;s name in big block letters while being coupled by an intimate photo. In contrast, despite often being very attractive visually, the Prestige covers and album titles were quite random at times and thus failed to identify a &#8216;messenger&#8217; for the message.</p>
<p>I also find the mythic contrast between the &#8216;jam sessions&#8217; of Prestige and the &#8216;rehearsed&#8217; sides of Blue Note to have some sort of base in reality. Generally speaking, Blue Note sessions do sound tighter, and on the contrary, though there are many Prestige sessions that I feel are well produced, I have heard just as many that have that jam session vibe, which at the end of the day doesn&#8217;t make as profound a creative statement to me. If I can tell that the band could have been better rehearsed I&#8217;ll probably still dig the album but I do notice when an album is well produced, and I&#8217;d say that Blue Note albums achieved this with an incredibly high degree of consistency. Put simply, I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any denying that Alfred Lion was a brilliant producer. (Rudolf: Despite the points I just made, I do understand what seems like your frustration with Blue Note&#8217;s singular cult status in the world of jazz).</p>
<p>Insane eBay prices never fail to make me laugh, but at this point in my time as a jazz record collector, they never, ever, ever surprise me.</p>
<p>PS: Loved Art Klempner&#8217;s post!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ethan		</title>
		<link>https://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/collectible-jazz-vinyl-through-the-years/comment-page-2/#comment-410138</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ethan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2016 02:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jazzcollector.com/?p=6974#comment-410138</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: rudolph: not harsh at all, I knew we had different decades on our minds. My favorite Prestige titles tend towards the New Jazz imprint as you may have guessed, and if you asked me what my favorite blue note is, it would be hard not saying Out To Lunch (I dont have a favorite but thats a fun answer to the question). I really like bop and the early soul/blues jazz sound before it became cliche, but I can dig on modal, post bop, and spiritual sessions all day.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: rudolph: not harsh at all, I knew we had different decades on our minds. My favorite Prestige titles tend towards the New Jazz imprint as you may have guessed, and if you asked me what my favorite blue note is, it would be hard not saying Out To Lunch (I dont have a favorite but thats a fun answer to the question). I really like bop and the early soul/blues jazz sound before it became cliche, but I can dig on modal, post bop, and spiritual sessions all day.</p>
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		<title>
		By: rl1856		</title>
		<link>https://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/collectible-jazz-vinyl-through-the-years/comment-page-2/#comment-410115</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[rl1856]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2016 20:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jazzcollector.com/?p=6974#comment-410115</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In the current parlance, Blue Note was curated, Prestige was not.  The Weinstock brothers issued everything set to tape, as many times as they thought they could earn a positive ROI.  If Wolf or Lion did not like a take or a session it was tabled and not issued when they owned the label.  Everything vs only what was &quot;good&quot;.  Listeners and collectors have noted the difference.   Part of the mystique surrounding BN as  a label is their approach to the artist and to the music.  &quot;Rehearsal&quot; time may have been an embellishment by Cuscunna but BN did allow more time for preparation and greater leeway in the studio than other labels (like Prestige).  A large part of the BN mystique is also media driven.  Ask a non jazz collector to name a few jazz labels, and BN will be mentioned by many.  Prestige by comparatively few.  Why because the media has had a hand in creating the &quot;cool jazz loving aficionado&quot; persona and has successfully tied it to BN as an example of what the discriminating collector prefers.  

Another element to the rise in prices is premium reissues.  The entities that have chosen to reissue classic titles have also brought additional attention to these titles and to the issuing labels.  Many would prefer to own the original vs a reissue and have come into the market as a result.  

There is no doubt that we are in a collectables bubble.  Classic Cars, art, records.....all prices seem to be going up.  Partly nostalgia driven, but there are many newly rich who now have the resources to indulge their passions.  For some collecting is a status symbol, for others it is finally being able to afford what they could not afford when they were younger.  How long can this play out ?   We are in the middle late stages of Baby Boomer markets (retiring and moving to fixed incomes) and entering the middle stages of Gen X/Y driven markets (entering peak earning years and have disposable income).  What did these people want when they were young impressionable and their tastes were being shaped ?   For a certain segement, both in the US and overseas it was Jazz recordings.  Either they didn&#039;t have the money at the time (boomers), or product wasn&#039;t available locally (lived in a rural area, or lived overseas), but now they have the cash and the internet puts the market on their computer screen.  A few clicks and you can have that vintage BN title in your hand !   Boomers are retiring, but still see themselves as frustrated teenagers.  They&#039;ll continue to buy.  X/Y now have more disposable income, and are getting the point where the kids are leaving the home.  They will continue to come into the market.

Unless the bottom falls out of the world economy, don&#039;t expect the bubble to burst.  Growth may moderate, but growth will continue.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the current parlance, Blue Note was curated, Prestige was not.  The Weinstock brothers issued everything set to tape, as many times as they thought they could earn a positive ROI.  If Wolf or Lion did not like a take or a session it was tabled and not issued when they owned the label.  Everything vs only what was &#8220;good&#8221;.  Listeners and collectors have noted the difference.   Part of the mystique surrounding BN as  a label is their approach to the artist and to the music.  &#8220;Rehearsal&#8221; time may have been an embellishment by Cuscunna but BN did allow more time for preparation and greater leeway in the studio than other labels (like Prestige).  A large part of the BN mystique is also media driven.  Ask a non jazz collector to name a few jazz labels, and BN will be mentioned by many.  Prestige by comparatively few.  Why because the media has had a hand in creating the &#8220;cool jazz loving aficionado&#8221; persona and has successfully tied it to BN as an example of what the discriminating collector prefers.  </p>
<p>Another element to the rise in prices is premium reissues.  The entities that have chosen to reissue classic titles have also brought additional attention to these titles and to the issuing labels.  Many would prefer to own the original vs a reissue and have come into the market as a result.  </p>
<p>There is no doubt that we are in a collectables bubble.  Classic Cars, art, records&#8230;..all prices seem to be going up.  Partly nostalgia driven, but there are many newly rich who now have the resources to indulge their passions.  For some collecting is a status symbol, for others it is finally being able to afford what they could not afford when they were younger.  How long can this play out ?   We are in the middle late stages of Baby Boomer markets (retiring and moving to fixed incomes) and entering the middle stages of Gen X/Y driven markets (entering peak earning years and have disposable income).  What did these people want when they were young impressionable and their tastes were being shaped ?   For a certain segement, both in the US and overseas it was Jazz recordings.  Either they didn&#8217;t have the money at the time (boomers), or product wasn&#8217;t available locally (lived in a rural area, or lived overseas), but now they have the cash and the internet puts the market on their computer screen.  A few clicks and you can have that vintage BN title in your hand !   Boomers are retiring, but still see themselves as frustrated teenagers.  They&#8217;ll continue to buy.  X/Y now have more disposable income, and are getting the point where the kids are leaving the home.  They will continue to come into the market.</p>
<p>Unless the bottom falls out of the world economy, don&#8217;t expect the bubble to burst.  Growth may moderate, but growth will continue.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michel		</title>
		<link>https://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/collectible-jazz-vinyl-through-the-years/comment-page-2/#comment-410107</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2016 18:09:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jazzcollector.com/?p=6974#comment-410107</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Rudolf i was just trying to play the role of the &quot;avocat du diable...&quot;.  Couldn&#039;t agree more to wat you write....  I modestly try to collect everything in Jazz but Blue Note - because, Blue Note needs no promotion and overshadows almost everything else.... My collection is full of Lee and Warne, Billy Usselton, Paul Moer, Stan Levey, Don Sleet,  Lou Levy, Mike Cuozzo, Bill Holman Hal McKusick, the Brothers Candoli and Stan Levey, Curtis Counce, and... and... and everybody else... And even Harry Loukofski !!! 
 and I was just trying to imagine what makes Blue Note so attractive...Because, if Paul Moer or Teddy Edwards had recorded for Blue Note, they would be famous now...

A myth is not necessarily based on a true story - but, if it work good among years and years it become a historical fact in itself.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rudolf i was just trying to play the role of the &#8220;avocat du diable&#8230;&#8221;.  Couldn&#8217;t agree more to wat you write&#8230;.  I modestly try to collect everything in Jazz but Blue Note &#8211; because, Blue Note needs no promotion and overshadows almost everything else&#8230;. My collection is full of Lee and Warne, Billy Usselton, Paul Moer, Stan Levey, Don Sleet,  Lou Levy, Mike Cuozzo, Bill Holman Hal McKusick, the Brothers Candoli and Stan Levey, Curtis Counce, and&#8230; and&#8230; and everybody else&#8230; And even Harry Loukofski !!!<br />
 and I was just trying to imagine what makes Blue Note so attractive&#8230;Because, if Paul Moer or Teddy Edwards had recorded for Blue Note, they would be famous now&#8230;</p>
<p>A myth is not necessarily based on a true story &#8211; but, if it work good among years and years it become a historical fact in itself.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kees		</title>
		<link>https://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/collectible-jazz-vinyl-through-the-years/comment-page-1/#comment-410088</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kees]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2016 14:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jazzcollector.com/?p=6974#comment-410088</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Amen]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rudolf		</title>
		<link>https://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/collectible-jazz-vinyl-through-the-years/comment-page-1/#comment-410072</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rudolf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2016 09:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jazzcollector.com/?p=6974#comment-410072</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Michel: for me Blue Note is absolutely not the synthesis of everything I expect in jazz. On the contrary, it is representing a particular segment of the music, partly fed by Crow Jim sentiments and thus concentrating on music exclusively made by the Black proletariat of the East Coast. This is a fact with the departure of Gil Mellé as an exclusive Blue Note recording artist (BLP 1517). Mellé went to Prestige. The incidental presence of J.R. Monterose and Pepper Adams on later sessions does not invalidate my thesis.
The story of two immigrants, having fled from Berlin, recording the Black proletariat, fits in marvelously with  prevailing politiquement correct mainstream thought. This is the beginning of the myth, re-inforced by the strong Crow Jim attitude of the Japanese and some Europeans. Then fully explored by Lourie and Cuscuna when promoting their Blue Note re-issue programs. Others jumped on the bandwagon too, the facsimile producers. All those people have vested interests for the myth to continue. The more expensive the originals become, the more facsimile productions they will sell.
For me Blue Note represents just one segment in jazz and a very valuable one. The three Thad Jones albums, the Herb Nichols, the Morgan vol. 3, the Mellé, J.R. are amongst my all time favourites. But there is so much more in jazz: Lee and Warne, Bill Evans, Twardzik, Bob Gordon, Jack Montrose, George Russell, Giuffre, Red Garland, Niehaus, Getz, Mal Waldron, Teddy Charles, Farmer/Gryce, Elmo Hope, etc etc. I cannot accept to be prisoner of a narrow ideology and the pensée unique. The world of jazz is too vast to be confined to one record label only.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michel: for me Blue Note is absolutely not the synthesis of everything I expect in jazz. On the contrary, it is representing a particular segment of the music, partly fed by Crow Jim sentiments and thus concentrating on music exclusively made by the Black proletariat of the East Coast. This is a fact with the departure of Gil Mellé as an exclusive Blue Note recording artist (BLP 1517). Mellé went to Prestige. The incidental presence of J.R. Monterose and Pepper Adams on later sessions does not invalidate my thesis.<br />
The story of two immigrants, having fled from Berlin, recording the Black proletariat, fits in marvelously with  prevailing politiquement correct mainstream thought. This is the beginning of the myth, re-inforced by the strong Crow Jim attitude of the Japanese and some Europeans. Then fully explored by Lourie and Cuscuna when promoting their Blue Note re-issue programs. Others jumped on the bandwagon too, the facsimile producers. All those people have vested interests for the myth to continue. The more expensive the originals become, the more facsimile productions they will sell.<br />
For me Blue Note represents just one segment in jazz and a very valuable one. The three Thad Jones albums, the Herb Nichols, the Morgan vol. 3, the Mellé, J.R. are amongst my all time favourites. But there is so much more in jazz: Lee and Warne, Bill Evans, Twardzik, Bob Gordon, Jack Montrose, George Russell, Giuffre, Red Garland, Niehaus, Getz, Mal Waldron, Teddy Charles, Farmer/Gryce, Elmo Hope, etc etc. I cannot accept to be prisoner of a narrow ideology and the pensée unique. The world of jazz is too vast to be confined to one record label only.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michel		</title>
		<link>https://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/collectible-jazz-vinyl-through-the-years/comment-page-1/#comment-410069</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2016 08:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jazzcollector.com/?p=6974#comment-410069</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[To Rudolf. Yes Reid Miles did a fantastic job for Prestige, too. One of my  all time favourite jazz record cover is Ray Bryant Prestige 7098. 

I agree with you : Prestige and Riverside catalogue in the 60, were more diverse musically speaking. More all around as you stated it. 
So, there s no central explanation of the Blue Note myth. Or maybe one : Blue Note label is a sort of synthesis of everything we expect in jazz.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Rudolf. Yes Reid Miles did a fantastic job for Prestige, too. One of my  all time favourite jazz record cover is Ray Bryant Prestige 7098. </p>
<p>I agree with you : Prestige and Riverside catalogue in the 60, were more diverse musically speaking. More all around as you stated it.<br />
So, there s no central explanation of the Blue Note myth. Or maybe one : Blue Note label is a sort of synthesis of everything we expect in jazz.</p>
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