How Many Original Copies of Rare Jazz Vinyl Have Survived (and Other Existential Questions)
Let’s check out the Jazz Collector watch list on eBay, starting with Introducing Lee Morgan, Savoy 12091. This is not an original pressing. It has the maroon label with no deep grooves. I was fooled at first because the label looks red in the pictures, but the seller is very clear about what it is. Also, it’s not an original Savoy cover, with the white frame. It is in nice condition, graded M- for the record and near mint for the cover. The auction closes today and the bidding is in the $400 range.
Whilst on the subject of Lee Morgan, I got this note in my inbox the other day from a reader named Andy:
“Hi there. Just wanted to say hi and I’ve been enjoying your blog for the past year. Been listening to vinyl for a long time but just started getting into collecting older jazz albus recently. As a listener first and collector second I’ve been wondering: How rare are these older Blue Notes? Or how many do you think are in circulation? Say, for instance Lee Morgan’s Candy. Are there 100 in VG+ condition? Any knowledge on this is much appreciated. Thanks.”
My reply:
“Hi, Andy. Thanks for the kind words. There’s no way of really knowing how many original copies of any record have survived in VG+ or better condition. Based on what I’ve seen on eBay over the many years watching, plus my own experience in record stores and with other collectors, I would guess for a really rare record like Candy, there are maybe 300 or so copies in collectors of floating around between collections. It’s a good question and I will ask it of the broader audience when I do a new post. Cheers.”
So there it is. You have my educated guess. What’s yours.
Speaking of rare original Blue Notes, there is Hank Mobley Quintet, Blue Note 1550. This is an original deep groove pressing with the New York 23 labels. The record and cover are both graded in VG+ condition, so this copy would fit Andy’s criteria. Do you think there are 300 of these out there? Maybe, maybe not. I know I don’t have an original pressing, and I’ve been collecting jazz for more than 50 years. Anyway, the bidding for this one is in the $600 range with more than four days left on the auction.
Finally, there is this: Sonny Rollins, The Sound of Sonny, Riverside 12-241. This is not an original pressing. An original would have the white label, and this one has the blue label. But it is quite interesting because right on the front cover is Sonny’s signature, with the following note: “To Morrie. Sonny Rollins. Best wishes.” I don’t need Don Lucky to confirm that this is Sonny’s signature because I have other examples, and this is clearly Sonny, no doubt about it. Plus, the seller, who happens to be Morrie, has a great story to go with it, including a ticket from the concert where Sonny signed it, and even a copy of the set list. I know if my name was Morrie I’d be all over this one, even though the start price is $500. I still find it very cool, knowing the story and the details about how, when and where Sonny signed it. It’s funny, all those years of seeing Sonny live, it never occurred to me to ask him for his autograph. I know he would have signed, especially on those nights late in the middle of the week when the clubs were pretty empty and you could just go up and talk with him, which we often did. But asking for an autograph always seemed intrusive to me, or, better yet, it just didn’t seem cool. But, looking back, perhaps I could have been less concerned with seeming cool because I sure wouldn’t mind a copy of Tenor Madness signed “To Al. Sonny Rollins. Best wishes.”
i am actually going to see the cookers tonight – billy hart, cecil mcbee, donald harrison, eddie henderson, billy harper, don pullen….
I thought about taking some records for them to sign, but i take the same line as you do, al. i would rather just enjoy their performance and not worry about my records the whole time.
It’s so hard to speculate on how many copies exist, especially because it’s not just the copies we *know* are out there, it’s the ones we *don’t* know are out there — the ones that have never left the original owner.
For example, I recently was blessed to inherit the collection of my great uncle. In the collection, which was in his possession for the past 70+ years, was a Byrd on Transition and a few others of that ilk, in beautiful condition. He’d owned the records his whole life. Collectors don’t know about people like him. Well, they know they’re out there but they don’t know how to find them because these folks have no interest in getting rid of their collection. It’s often not until they pass that a disinterested family member reaches out to a dealer.
I follow a Jazz vinyl lovers page on Facebook, and a guy there recently unearthed (if we are to believe the story, although it seemed legit based on photos) a nearly complete collection of pristine 1500 series Blue Notes from a 93-year-old man. So there are probably more out there than we think, though maybe not many more.
Thank you for the response.One thing I’ve learned in the last year is a lot of those older blue note albums in good shape are more rare than I thought.Happy listening.
There must be at least something like a hundred of hidden collections, on the Continent and in the UK. Stacked away in family mansions, sometimes with people around who are unaware of their presence.
Owners or heirs who pay respect to what has been in the family as long as they can remember. People who don’t come out on Instagram, or on the jazzcollector site.
If, by sheer coincidence, a collection sees the daylight, people like Paris Jazz Corner or Vinyl House in the UK will be there to bring them in the open.
I think that hidden collections in the USA are less likely. The society is more open and people are moving around more frequently.
The big unknown is Japan.
thinking of a census: am I out of this world?
Yes Interesting questions! Collections – hidden or not hidden? I guess you have collectors that are accumulators over long time and buyer/sellers that are very active in upgrading buying selling collections. Locally in Stockholm have unearthed maybe 6-8 collections the last year – mostly from elderly gentlemen that either died or wanted to cash in. I guess the most common is when a collector has died or is terminally ill and he/she or relatives sell it all.
But were they “hidden” – I really don’t know….and does it matter? Our Dottorjazz friends’ collection here is surely not hidden since he is well known and has published info based on his personal collection of 1st pressing. Also Fredrik here likes to share his collection. In Japan I’m sure a lot of OG’s are in personal collections since they accumulated so much in the 70’s 80’s and 90’s.
My collection is not so exposed on the net but I post on Insta sometimes and Facebook “Jazz vinyl Lovers” a little more frequent. But sure people can not see my OG of BN 1550 and it’s not for sale….;-)
Well at the end of the day I guess you’ll have to pose some Q’s to establish how many OG BN1550 there are out there for sale or not. It will all be speculation of course. First you have to find out how many OG’s were pressed. Then how many copies are likely to be in VG+ or better condition? How many were lost in fire and floods or other mishaps. Then the factor how many we see exposed regularly online and sold on ebay and discogs. Some were the same copy yes but anyway. So finally we get a guessing number and I think Al is about right – maybe 100 for candy. Even less for 1568 and probably more for 1550. That’s my guess….!
Part of my guess was based on how many originals were printed in the first place, which is also a guess. Were there 1,000 copies of something like Candy or 1568 for a first pressing? Certainly no more than that, and probably less. If you think about how many people are interested in collecting these now, you can see why the demand for these gems is so high and why many buyers probably believe it is an investment that will keep going up. I’ve never bought for investment purposes, but I must admit, I will not pass up a bargain even I have two copies of the record already. I think that has more to do with the thrill of the hunt as opposed to the idea that someday I will be able to resell the record and make money. I’ve always enjoyed buying records — still do — but as for selling them, it doesn’t do anything for me.
A significant proportion of the rarest and best records in outstanding condition went to Japan in the 80’s and 90’s. These will never resurface.
I held a copy of Candy in my hands and put it back in the bins within the past 6 months. It was being sold by a local store who was liquidating the collection of a local musician and DJ who passed away 5 years ago. I didn’t think I could explain the $300 purchase price to my lovely wife. Yes, the copy was in rougher condition, but still, right?
I try not to have regrets in this hobby. I picked up quite a few less expensive items from this collection, and probably feel worse for passing on the two Liberty Duke Pearson records, than Candy, frankly.
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I just got a 1st copy of Cliff Jordan BLP 1565 from my local store. Traded in a few hours before VG+/VG+. I asked him to hold it for me as I could make it till after work. So I ask him the price, I was expecting to hear $250-$500, and he responded $68.00. I am a long time customer but he clearly based this off the UA price. So far my excitement for getting the record has exceeded my guilt. I live in Florida and Blue Notes never come thru the door.
Just felt like sharing the story with people who’d appreciate it.