Jazz Vinyl, Highs, Lows and In-Betweens
Let’s clear out some of the jazz vinyl we’ve been tracking on our eBay watch list, starting with a few from the Jazz Record Center auction that ended earlier this week, including Curtis Fuller, Bone and Bari, Blue Note 1572. This was an original West 63rd Street pressing that looked to be in M- (or close) condition for both the record and the cover. The final price was $1,136. I thought that might be approaching a high point for this record, but it’s not even close. According to Popsike, the top price for this record was $2,550, and there have been at least four other copies that have sold for more than $1,500. It is possible to think that the buyer got a “bargain” at $1,136?
There were several comments on this record: Paul Gonsalves, Boom-Jackie-Boom-Chick, Vocalion LAE 587. This looked to be an original deep-groove U.K. pressing probably in M- condition for the record and VG++ for the cover. When we spotted this record, there were no bidders at a start price of $1,000. It wound up with 12 bids and a final price of $1,824.99. Then there was the second pressing copy of Sonny Clark, Sonny’s Crib, Blue Note 1576. This one had the West 63rd Street labels, no New York 23. It looked to be in M- condition for the record and cover, and the final price was $621.22.
I really did spend a lot of time off eBay, pursuing that collection to which I’ve obliquely referred, as has my friend Dee, the owner of said collection, who has also cryptically mentioned the name “Ornette,” which provides something of a clue as to its possible derivation. Eventually I will be ready to discuss it.
In the meantime, I would like to go back a few weeks to see what happened to some other jazz records we were watching on eBay, starting with Art Taylor, AT’s Delight, Blue Note 4047. This looked to be an original West 63rd Street pressing in M- condition for both the record and the cover. The start price was $449 and I suspected that it might make it into the $1,000 bin. Instead, there were no bids at all. I feel like I may be missing something. The seller lists a lot of records and has 100% feedback. Any guesses? There were a couple of others from the same seller that didn’t get bids, such as Sonny Rollins with the Modern Jazz Quartet, Prestige 7029. This was an original New York pressing with the original orange framed cover. The record was listed as M- and the cover was VG+. The start price was $349. A few records I was watching from that auction did sell, with one or two bidders, including Sheila Jordan, Portrait of Sheila, Blue Note 9002. This was an original New York USA pressing listed in M- condition for both the record and the cover. There was one bid and the record sold for $249.
At the same time, another seller seemed to do quite well with some later Blue Note records that I didn’t think had the same cachet as collectibles, although, to be fair, I’ve been wrong about these things many times before. For instance, there was Lee Morgan, The Gigolo, Blue Note 4212. This was an original mono pressing, which is a rare version because it was only issued as a promo copy. It had the Liberty labels and was probably in VG or VG+ condition for the record and VG++ for the cover. There was an issue with a long visible mark across side one. Still, the record sold for $433, which was the highest price we’ve seen for this record on Popsike.
There was also Bobby Hutcherson, Happenings, Blue Note 4231. This was also a promo mono pressing with the New York USA address on both labels. The record and cover were listed in M- condition. The final price was $308, which was not the highest price we’ve seen for the record – that would be $630 – but it did crack the top 10.
ATs Delight is not a first. No ear no deep groove.
Gee, I know I was missing something. All this time away has gotten me off my game.
Considering that Fuller has an audible mark on it, I’d not consider it a bargain at all…
I think we’ve arrived at the point in ebay history where a handful of sellers (dealers, all) control the rare record market. There are good records up now on the bay (ain’t namin’ no names) that would sell for twice or more in similar condition from one of the top sellers; and these records from minor players have no bids. Meanwhile, if I want to sell parts of my collection I’d get pennies on the dollar by comparison to the top sellers. It’s a little frustrating when I want to thin out duplicates…
Dear David,
Welcome to Capitalism….
The 7029 is not a 1st. The 1st art jacket should read 7020 (mis-print) on the front in a completely different typeface.
Thank you Fredrik. I knew that. I think I’ve reached the point where I’ve forgotten more than I remember. Not just with the records, but with the music. A few weeks ago I was at a concert and the band played a tune and I knew it cold, I could even hum the first few bars of a solo that I knew was Cannonball Adderley’s. I got in the car and was humming the tune and tapping my feet. Yet, for the life of me, I couldn’t remember the same of the tune. It was sooooo frustrating, especially when I eventually figured out, the next day, with help from a friend and Google, that the song was Tadd Dameron’s Our Delight, which I’ve probably listened to literally dozens or hundreds of times in various versions. Same thing happened a few years ago with Sonny Rollins’ Doxy, of all tunes, another one I know absolutely cold, yet the name escaped me for hours. Overall, I can deal with getting older, but stuff like this does drive me a little batty.
David – It’s true…I have two ebay handles, one for records only (waxcabinet), and one for a bunch of other stuff I find. The only thing is, I haven’t sold records on eBay in well over 2 years…the last one I did sell was Mobley 1568 for a friend. Top Sellers get Top Dollars. I’ve actually had much more luck selling offline to folks on here and through facebook/Instagram. It’s more personable that waiting for an auction to end…plus we’ve been able to build up relationships that allow for trades, which I value more than just selling.
David j i concur completely. take for instance the nm John Jenkins 1573 that was sold a couple weeks ago for $1150 i believe, if that auction was from Euclid records , OR jRC it would have sold for more
i was going to comment what jason said. i use discogs and reverb quite a bit, and i also like to sell and trade just directly with friends. but also this is not my job. it is just to fund the hobby.
Gregory – I actually just pulled all my records off of discogs! I decided to give everything I had for sale on their as trade to a buddy for more of what I collect. He will be able to make more $$ than I can for those records. while I can enjoy the jazz he has for trade!
Art, respectfully, ebay record sales are not an example of Capitalism, at least not in my college text book. What seems to have happened is that that market, to the extent it is represented by ebay, has shifted toward a very few sellers. These sellers command command the highest (often inflated) prices, which end up in aggregators like popsike. Then, every other not-top-ebay-seller bases their prices on the aggregators’ top prices, and what amounts to only a few top-shelf sales. Hence, the whole market rises on these few sellers. I’m old enough to remember set-sale lists and auction lists in Goldmine. In those days a few sellers didn’t set the entire market; record sales were much more wide open and the relative highest prices went to whomever had the best records. People traded more vinyl then, too, like Jason suggests. The market changed when ebay became America’s garage sale. Then, in ebay’s push to drive profits they have made it more something-that-is-not-clear-to-me-yet, which in our small corner of the world, has made our little hobby a rich-man’s hobby. If we collectors can never get top ebay prices for equal quality product the hobby has changed for the worse. I hate to sound like a moldy fig, but I miss the good ole days.
I ended up with BLP 4212. It’s much better than VG, play graded.
Moldy fig. You don’t see that expression much anymore. I always assumed it was bebop language for mother fucker and, while a quick Google search doesn’t confirm that, it would take a very strong argument to convince me otherwise. 🙂
I don’t believe that the top sellers only get top dollar for items. It’s all about who is willing to pay and any given point in time. It’s like a fine steak, there’s a few times that I’m willing to go to a steakhouse and drop $100+ on a meal, and other days, I’m like “Naw, I’ll do this myself today…”
The Hank Mobley I listed, I had to list it twice due to a non payer. The first time, it only got $4,000, the second time around it sold for $5,300. So you just never know day to day, week to week, and even hour to hour, what an object will sell for.
There was a time when I was cracking top 10 on collectorsfrenzy on a regular basis with the jazz records I was selling, and these were cracking the top 10 prices. Hence why my friend asked me to list the Mobley for him.
eBay is a crap shoot…it’s an auction…you never know what something is going to sell for when you auction it. If sellers want a certain price, either put a reserve, or sell it as Buy It Now. or just take the crap shoot and risk an auction…
Worthy discussion re: EBAY maturity. Yes, a handful of BigBoys are getting more money than certain LP’s are really worth (1 or 2 Sellers in particular). But these Sellers do maintain a constant presence, work hard, have good Titles, and operate as a Business. Ebay Earnings over 20K a year are subject to income taxes, plus they have a few employees. The high prices are frustrating in one sense but admirable & stupifying in another. As a 20 year Ebay seller myself RECORDSHOP (selling occasionally) I still get handsome prices for good clean Titles. However, I’m currently looking at Facebook/Instagram/Etc. for a different selling experience. My priorities are shifting to clean, win-win transactions, Ideas, Imagery, and enjoying my 30+ year Vinyl collection.
My wife finally convinced me to start thinning the herd and I put about 70 records up on ebay 2 weeks ago as a trial. Nothing super collectible and mostly dupes, (e.g., typical 1st press Riversides, some VG/VG+ original Art Blakeys, etc.). Only 70% of the records were bought and most for between $15-20. Between what I originally bought them for and the eBay fees, I barely broke even. I would have thought that the market, domestic and especially non-US, would have been robust enough to support $30+ prices. It feels like the market has peaked, outside of Top 10 sellers and super collectibles. The vinyl resurgence has worked its way through the market and most collectors have what they want OR refuse like me to pay high eBay auction prices for the gaps in their collection.
I feel like the few main seller get what they get because they are accurate and reliable. Many lesser known sellers can be a crapshoot (even with 100% feedback). You may get better price or you may get burned. I’m sometimes willing to spend a little extra for peace of mind, and I’m sure I’m not the only one.
While I’m not a professional seller, I have sold exclusively through Instagram for about a year or so. No more eBay, no more Discogs, no record shows, only direct sales, hassle free, with no fees and nasty claims. Instagram is a fantastic outlet for selling jazz vinyl, I’ve sold hundreds of records this year alone, I have never run into a serious problem and only had two returns during all this time. And I am buying from and trading with other collectors there as well, even making new friends along the way. If you’re willing to do the work and build an audience, it can be very rewarding.
That said, if you’re selling grails like BN 1568, you still may be better off to do so on eBay, because you will have a much broader audience with deeper pockets. I mostly sell cheaper to mid-range vinyl.
Some of these big time sellers like carolinasoul, funkyou, JRC, etc. do consignment, which is worth it on a clutch of big ticket items.
@DJ Pari (or others). Forgive me, but I’m an old fart. How do the Instagram sales work? You just list records on your profile for a fixed price? These are still records you mail out to buyers? I presume you have to build up an audience/customer base for that to work. If you’re selling fixed price, is the tradeoff over eBay that you need to be more realistic about the price you’ll ask, whereas on eBay you might get lucky and sell for way over average?
Moldy figs were the generation of mostly critics that didn’t like developments in jazz after the hot Chicago and New York scenes. They didn’t like swing; they like trad stuff. I referred to myself that way because I’m complaining about contemporary events and lauding the good old days. I have no idea if it means motherfucker or not.
I’m pissed because I can’t get any interest in the good jazz (and some lesser condition ones) I have been trying to sell on ebay. I’ve been on ebay since just about the beginning (1998) and have sold thousands of records. I can’t sell anything these days. I attribute it to the fact that I only sell a few times per year to rid myself of duplicates and records to which I no longer listen. I don’t want to take the records to shows (other dealers just pick through things and offer 25% of whatever I have a disk priced) and I don’t want the stuff sitting in the garage waiting for Discogs buyers. After 21 years you’d think I could get some traffic, but my page counts are pathetically low. When I do get sales I get a tiny fraction of the prices of the sellers Clifford (and others) have mentioned. I put myself partially through grad school flipping records on ebay and now I can’t get a single bid on Larry Young Blue Note mono first press titles in vg++ for 1/4th of what people would kill to pay from the big boys.
Having written all that I cede the soapbox.
I love this discussion because I think everyone has a very valid point. I think there is no more “middle class” in Jazz records on eBay. No matter who you are, if you put up a 1568 in decent shape you’ll get a tremendous price, but a lesser title doesn’t have the same cache and won’t get as many eyeballs to the listing. I know this is painful, especially if it is from your personal collection and one that you paid good money for back in the seventies, eighties or nineties. I know I feel personally offended when one of these gems doesn’t sell, or even get many eyeballs to the listing. I’ve had a Japanese Kenny Barron / Tommy Flanagan NM up for months At $8!!! I feel like the curmudgeon hollering – What’s wrong with people these days?
As far as the big time sellers, they have thousands of followers who receive notices when they list new items and therefore get hundreds of hits on things that may be listed by other sellers, but won’t be viewed by these same buyers.
When I owned a store we had some titles that were our “bread and butter” go to pieces that would always sell. In Jazz they were mostly OJC re-issues and anything by Miles or Trane. Try selling used OJC reissues on eBay, there’s so much of it and it sits, even the Coltrane stuff. The market is like a fiddler’s elbow. Such is life.
@japhy That’s pretty much it. Of course you do have to build an audience first so people trust you. The IG jazz collector community is fairly small but very engaged, so most people know each other. If you have records for sale you post them and, yes, with a fixed price, although some people accept offers. It’s fairly easy and if I post popular titles, they often go within a matter of minutes. At this point I’ve build a base of regular customers there so I rarely post records for sale anymore but make my pitches directly to the buyers.
I agree that there is a bit of a monopoly held by some of the major sellers in the US and in the world right now (e.g. Disk Union in Japan) BUT at the same time I still feel optimistic about the future of the individual seller, whether on eBay or Discogs, and the future of the individual collector. Super rarities still come to the fore, and from places/people you’d least expected them to appear, and not just from someone who found a collection in a barn or from an estate sale.
Sometimes a seller KNOWS what they have and would rather do a quick sale than go the (often torturous) auction route. They’re not “cheap” but they’re also waaaaay under the usual $1000+ price they’d command among collectors. And because many of them still operate with human values and not merely commercial interest, there is room to barter and/or even pay via installment.
Case in point: I bought a VG++ copy of “Sahib Shihab and the Danish Radio Jazz Group” a few years ago from a guy who knew what he had. I told him I couldn’t pay it up front (it was in fact more than $1000+) but I asked if I could pay over a few months. He said sure, and we made our arrangements. He has his money, I’ve got my Shihab, and I did not have to take out a second mortgage for it. That’s the human side of this game that sometimes goes underappreciated.
AL:
I never realized that, but I bet you are right. Ha!
I bought for high prices on ebay for the past 20 years or so, and now I’ve basically moved into the ‘hold’ phase, which (I am guessing here, based on my age) will last 10 years or so. My hope when I finally have to sell, is that I get what I paid, more or less.
As soon as the profit motive takes over, the hobby suffers.
Dumbing down of tastes, though is also big problem. Remember that Lorraine Geller album?
The speculators will do their thing, and then move on to greener pastures, the sooner the better. Long live the hardcore of jazz collectors and music lovers.
I want still want much more that Lorraine Geller album (and some others too) than many Blue Notes / Prestige i already have, or will ever have. I have seen too much Blue Note for sale every week. Basically my interest for this label is dead, i have enough of it on my shelves. I really don’t care about what is hype and what is worth. I still buy records i really like in NM condition.
i like most records on blue note and i buy them when i find them for good prices in good shape. but that is fairly uncommon.
Michel, I so agree.
And while we’re on the subject of great piano trio records on Dot (the label), let’s not forget that great Don Bagley album.
So many great jazz albums lost and forgotten in the stampede for Blue Note and Prestige.