Jazz Vinyl Miscellany and Mail
Before getting back to writing about my own experiences doing the recent auction with Carolina Soul Records, let’s return to our normal activity of watching other peoples’ rare jazz vinyl in eBay and taking a peak in the old Jazz Collector inbox. Let’s start with Sonny Clark Trio, Blue Note 1579. This looks to be an original West 63rd Street pressing. The record is listed in VG+ condition. The cover is also listed as VG+, but the pictures show it to be no better than VG. It’s from a seller in Thailand who has one feedback. The start price is $1,250 with less than a day left on the auction. We’ll see if anyone is desperate enough to take that kind of risk. Meanwhile, I have a beautiful VG++ copy that may make it to the next round of auctions. Or, maybe not.
Here’s one I can’t figure out: Hank Mobley, Roll Call, Blue Note 84058. This is a West 63rd Street pressing with the ear, Van Gelder and deep grooves. But it’s also a stereo pressing. Was Blue Note issuing stereo copies of this record when it was first released in 1961? I recall seeing stereo copies of Blue Train and Art Blakey Blue Note 4003, but they had a Stereo stamp on them, and not the number 8 in front. I’m sure someone will have the answer. In the meantime, this copy is listed as M- for the record and Excellent (and Amazing) for the cover. The bidding is at $325 with about three days left on the auction.
Billy Taylor Trio at Town Hall, Prestige 7093. This is an original New York yellow label pressing. The record is listed as M- and the cover is EX. The start price is around $500 and the auction closes in a day and a half from this posting. I realize, of course, that this is an original yellow label Prestige and those are quite desirable. And I’m also a fan of Billy Taylor, not just as a musician – he was great, popular and underrated all at the same time – but as an advocate and voice for the music. But I never got the sense any of his records were valued that highly by jazz collectors. So, let’s pause for a moment and work our way over to Popsike . . . I guess I was wrong. There have been several instances of Billy Taylor original Prestige records selling for more than $300, with a top of $405 for A Touch of Taylor, Prestige 7001. If the seller were to get his asking price for this Town Hall record, it would be a new high for Taylor. As for this particular record, the highest previous price was about $167.
This one is from Clifford: Tina Brooks, True Blue, Blue Note 4041. The note said: “$3K for a True Blue with a nasty scratch on tracks one and two, side B. I would not call that EX+!” So, yes, the record was graded EX+ and the cover was M- and the price was $3,055. With records like this, is it possible buyers have no intention of listening, and just want to have a copy, especially one with a nice cover, in their collection? Or is it just that these records are so hard to find, that even what Clifford describes as a “nasty scratch” isn’t a deterrent from someone paying more than $3,000?
Here’s an inquiry from a reader in London: “Hi. I have to travel to Houston for work from London soon. Do you know of any good record shops that I should visit for jazz?” Personally, I don’t, but perhaps someone here does.
Jim sent me a note about a record store that bought a collection a few years ago and is just getting around now to putting them on the shelves, including some original Blue Notes. Jim mentioned Lee Morgan City Lights, Horace Silver Cape Verdean Blues, and an Ike Quebec. No mention of price or condition. A few years ago, I would have jumped into the car immediately and started the three-hour journey. But, I now seem to be more in the subtracting mode than adding mode, so I’m passing the information on to Jazz Collector readers. The name of the store is Bull Moose and it is in Scarborough, ME. They also have other stores in the area, so perhaps these records are making their way across various locations in Maine and New Hampshire.
The seller hwooso of that Tina Brooks, True Blue, has been listing Classic Records and Japanese Disk Union Blue Note reissues as “originals”, some even with counterfeit “RVG”, “9M” and “P” stamps added to to the deadwax. See his sold copies of 1542, 1573, 4034, 4037, 4048. Buyer beware.
Aaron, how can you tell the True Blue is a fake, his photos of the record look legit. Looks like he re-listed the record
https://www.ebay.com/itm/275831676930?hash=item4038d96002:g:VbcAAOSwIntkM0Jv
That one isn’t as clear as the five other titles I listed but the texture of front cover (look at DBLP listings on eBay), the construction (top and bottom flaps over spine flap vs spine flap over top and bottom flaps on an original) and the lack of natural toning found on the back of a 63 year old record but especially a seller that has a history of listing modern reissues as originals.
PS – Compare it with the legit original True Blue from ebond2018 on ebay right now and you’ll see what I mean.
SMDH if the positive feedback is real from the buyers of the Classic Records reissues of Lee Morgan – Leeway ($1,025) and Lou Donaldson – Lou Takes Off ($1,725) sold as originals.
I don’t know how that seller gets away with it. Not all of the records are fake, but he mixes them in the fake ones (the ones with the ear, etc). I reported the fake ones to eBay, to no avail. These fake copies get traded in Japan all the time, still. The Sonny Rollins and the Kenny Dorham were particularly big items, but also included were Donald Byrd, John Jenkins, and Horace Parlan. The seller also ends the auctions early when bids are not picking up and then sells them for a lower than market price on buy it now- check it out. I had a fake blue note, with the ears and everything, but once you have it in your hands, they just don’t fell right, although they look so close to the real deal. Somewhere Fred Cohen has remarked on these fakes and close to the real thing they are getting.
Yes, true blue is definitely not original
I agree the cover on the Tina Brooks looks off.
On another note, those classical LPs in his sold items is like a wish list of the most expensive and collectable classical stereo records.
They all look entirely legitimate to me, and I’ve seen thousands of UK pressing classical LPs from that era (including one on his sold list).
That’s the thing, as mentioned above, not all pressings are misrepresented and well over half of the jazz titles sold are actual original pressings.
The True Blue looks like an original record housed in a DiskUnion reissue cover to me.
Aaron, i see what you mean now, the ” True Blue” is definitely not a original ,it would really help if Classic Records would list on the record with some clear cut indication it’s from them, the avg. Joe would not catch that it’s a fake. i assume the first buyer of the “True Blue” got wind of it not being a original first pressing and cancelled, since he relisted it. This is not good for our hobby, and the people who purchased the other records have left them positive feedback.
Has anyone put together a guide for spotting these fakes? I know they are meant to be exact/near replicas, but if anyone has tips or tricks it would be helpful.
Although I am a native Houstonian, I have lived in Austin for over 30 years. We visited last Thanksgiving, and I hit a few record stores. I expected the larger metro would make for good shopping. I was actually rather disappointed. Now, I’m certain that a resident must know the better places to shop. My recollection was that Sig’s Lagoon was overpriced and commits the cardinal sin of a merged blues/jazz section. At Sig’s you will walk past a rack with their “grails” as you walk in (within line of sight of the register). Of the other stores I visited Cactus had a not bad, but small jazz section. However, during my visit, half was covered with plastic tarps due to a leaking roof.
While I may complain that Austin’s bins are picked over, we seem to have better stores than either Houston or San Antonio. I’m starting to think the only remaining Nirvana must be somewhere in the upper Midwest – Wisconsin? Michigan?
Sigh. Now to get to cleaning the tattered $5 records I picked up today at the twice-yearly Austin Record Convention…..
hwooso put the Mobleys back up again. If you look at many of the jazz ones he’s posted, fake or not, there is a bidder with 0 feedback who wins most of the bids. That could be a troller, or a shill bidder. The fact that he put the Horace Parlan back up for buy it now right after the 0 bidder won AND that the same 0 bidder buyer bought other items AFTER that tells me that he did not block that buyer, thus it is a shill bid to ensure he gets max price, if not he outbids himself and then reopens as buy it now or he relists. But I don’t need to do this investigation as I know he last tried to sell the same True Blue with a fake cover in late 2030 and it was pulled from eBay for that vey reason. He last posted here (under a different name he had on eBay at the time) in 2018.
The Austin Record show is incredible for many reasons, but I want to point out one advantage. It seems to me that there is a lack of credibility and trust regarding the Internet and countless banter about condition issues. If you come to the Austin show you will be amazed at what you find. From $ – $$$$$$ Jazz records which you examine, determine grade and price. Seems this would solve your problems.. Save your bread for fall.
Hardbopter, you are correct , hwooso was on eBay like 5/6 years ago and he would always list those rare Blue Note lp’s that would get high prices,there was actually two sellers from South Korea, i remember now. looks like he has a nice Lou Donaldson that appears to be a first pressing, and i have been looking for that lp in nice condition for a long time, but i have a strong stance bidding on lp’s of known scammers
Hmm that True Blue cover is getting on my nerves. The Label and Runout looks legit and also including RVG’s 3 parallell lines closest to the label as Rudy used to do.
The cover looks like my OG cover but unbelievably fresh on the back slick… mine has natural ageing but is EX. The flaps and folding looks ok and about the same. Also the small print problem around 4041 on the upper left front. There are like 2 “dots” with missing black ink – both on my copy and another on sale on eBay now from ebond2018 in italy. Go figure – can you fake that? Also the lamination looks fine to me. Of course I could be unbelievably wrong here. Seller seems shady though and if he mixes OGs with replicas, some might be OK???
Hi Anders, are you familiar with the Disk Union reissues from around a decade ago? The were replicas designed to be as close to originals as possible and they are very close but not indistinguishable.
The texture of the lamination of the front is wavier than an original and way the flaps fold on the back of True Blue is different (top and bottom flaps over spine flap vs spine flap over top and bottom flaps on an original).
As far as the “2 “dots” with missing black ink” – the replica cover is from a scanned original so it’s logical that any anomalies would be present on both.
The record itself does appear to be legit, no clear signs of a reissue. Some of the records he is selling are absolutely legit but look at his sold copies of 1542, 1573, 4034, 4037, 4048, all clearly countrified or misrepresented.
Art, there are plenty cheap jazz records at the Austin RS in the low price bins. The better jazz records are mostly found in the preview day (Fridays) and it is mostly dealers who buy in bulk who seem to get the first pass. I’ve seen great collectable records that way. During the regular show days, it is nice to walk around and look at the bargain bins for non-jazz records in great shape, which are plenty (I usually load up on rock); other than that, it’s slim pickings for the more collectable jazz stuff. This time around a saw a nice first press Lee Morgan Cornbread mono that looked great, cover in shrink, and was priced at $300. The record was super clean, though it had many spindle marks, but it was priced right. No doubt someone got it as I passed on it. I also saw a Love Supreme, but didn’t have time to check out condition (billed as first pressing, which I already have mint), and there was a nice Sonny Rollins vol 2 (2nd press) that was very clean with a great looking cover, priced right at $600. Also had my heart broken when I saw a Booker Ervin the Book Cooks which I have been looking for a while, but it was not in great condition.
Hardbopster and others, for $30.00 you get a special 3 day pass and early admission everyday. Believe me if you’re flush with cash – it’s a one spot dream come true !
Art and hardbopster, although I had hoped to attend Friday, I just could not get away from work.
I buy records others would be embarrassed to have in their collections, run them through the ultrasonic, and enjoy them for the pleasure they bring me. I am not a serious collector by the standards of this fine group.
However, I did manage to pick up all of these for less than $200. Yes, I realized these would have been tossed as unsaleable 15 years ago, and dollar bin finds 10 years ago. Most of these were $5 apiece, and they are a bargain versus what they cost on eBay.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yAzGszsECT9xPw3mwb2xq0Qg9bledFcf/view?usp=drivesdk
I’ll go back to lurking now. I hope our visitor from UK gets additional recommendations for this visit to Houston, and that he enjoys his visit to our fine state.
That’s insane regarding the True Blue. I was looking at the price and the scratch, but didn’t notice it was a reissue!
and yeah, looking at the back cover now, I see immediately it’s not original. Wow.
austingonzo, nice haul there!
Aloha Al, to you and your readers this is probably a “green” question but I’m going to ask. I know you put a lot of thought into what you let go to CS. I began as a kid in the 80’s spinning tables putting together high energy, disco, hip hop, imports or italio disco, soul. Then in the mid 90’s out of college learning more in depth my grandparents and parents music, one genre that changed my life…jazz. And I enjoy the early style, swing, big band, of course Bop and so forth. I met these older music people that loved calling me the “young blood” who not only was learning about this great American creation but to also listen to it on tube systems with good efficient speakers. It was during this period I became aware of mono records and how good they sound, blew my mind. All of a sudden I go from stereo pressings on Casablanca, RCA, Epic to trying to find mono pressings on Prestige, Riverside, Impulse, BN, Atlantic, etc. Today I have some records in both Mono and Stereo. For example Coltrane’s Giant Steps. Or Mobley’s Roll Call. Do you keep both or let one go? Is there a rule of thumb in regard to mono and stereo recordings? I know electronically enhanced records aren’t really stereo. I think BN got into stereo recordings later then some of the other companies.
Another question, because I loved early Coltrane and him working with Paul Chambers, Red Garland I admit I found 3 original Prestige copy’s of Miles Davis Workin’ because I loved it so much and was worried I’d wear it out, thinking from my mixing days. Maybe it’s okay to let one copy go now! I’m sure many here would say it’s okay to let 2 go, LOL!
Anyhow, those are some questions I’m trying to figure out in regard to what I can let go. Thank you again for this series about thinning down one’s library. But not sacrificing music that one loves. Mahalo!
Hi guys! I’ve looked again and Aron and the rest you are certainly right. Lamination is off (too dimply) and the folding on the back is the wrong order. Aron – I have a couple of DiskUnions (not True Blue) and they look just like the one pictures lamination-wise. Very well made though. I compared a 1550 and the color is just right but the OG cover is ever so slightly sharper and crisper. If you compare the stock paper it is very different and the label DG is not so well replicated.
And I see that the bidding is over $2000 – ouch!
The grading hwooso applies to the cover of Mobley’s Message on Prestige is laughable. VG+ he’s calling it. Look at the back. More like VG-. I would stay away from this seller at all costs. Misrepresenting items and calling them original as discussed above and on top of that very bad grading.
Aloha Anders, how are the Disk Unions? Quality/sound? I have one Classic Recordsreissue for Lee Morgan. Trying to figure out for this Tina Brooks if an early Japanese reissue on King Records is the way to go or maybe another option. Mahalo, thank you!
I’m fine with True Blue on King and as part of the Mosaic. An original would be “cool” but at this point I’d probably end up trading it for something like a Yoshizawa OOPS! or Haga Tidal Wave. Tried to get one once for $80 from Dusty Groove (many years ago, before it was even $1,000) and was denied. OUT OF STOCK!
Aloha Clifford, thank you for your reply. Forgot about Mosaic’s Tina Brooks set. An original would be cool but I might have to sell a body part for one, so I think for now the Mosaic or King issue will be good so I have the music. Mahalo!
Looks like the True Blue sold for near $3600. hopefully the winning bidder gets wind of it being a fake. It’s a shame Ebay will not allow you to contact other bidders, i know they changed that rule to cut down on outside Ebay sales
https://www.ebay.com/itm/275831676930?hash=item4038d96002%3Ag%3AVbcAAOSwIntkM0Jv&nma=true&si=91C8t5oOgzO%252Ft9S072ulAvPNo%252BY%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
I prefer the King True Blue to the 1994 Connoisseur & 2008 Music Matters reissues. Never heard the Disk Union but they are very well regarded even if cut from digital files from master tape copies.
Hi! The Disk Unions from 2012-13 are fantastic reissues IMO – at least the ones I got. They are mono whereas MM are mostly stereo and for me they sound very very close to RVGs mastering. I think that Kevin Gray who also mastered these as well as the new Tone poets had a vision of making them sound as closely to the originals as possible.
The ones I’ve compared are BN Mobley 1550, Mobley Morgan Peckin’ Time , Afro Cuban and JR Montrose. The OGs are in VG+ or better so clean copies. Very very close indeed. They Disk Unions are however getting quite expensive these days and I understand why.
The True Blue Mosaic sounds very good as well. Apart from the boring Cover art it is a nice way to get true blue and the other three that are now Tone Poets – at least two of them.
Aloha Aaron & Anders, thank you for your input! Of course it would be nice to have an original but since it’s a costly and rarer one to come by, having the music is important! I will try to secure a King or Mosaic set. By the way. I understand RVG came to doing stereo a little later, he was obviously a master at mono recording. In regard to Blue Note and Prestige is it considered overall better to have the mono version if also a stereo one exists? I’m trying to let a records go like Al and just wonder about this. Some titles I have both versions. Thank you again. Mahalo!
I dunno, I don’t think the photo of Tina on the Mosaic is boring.
The Collectibles Market Is Cooling. What Remains a Good Bet? Bloomberg Business News
https://apple.news/ALHHfHBqPQBa1I8SLP72CqQ
Nothing specific about jazz vinyl of course
Thanks to those who responded on Houston. Here now and I can confirm it’s a total desert in terms of jazz vinyl. I have found this with a few cities in the US. Makes me appreciate what I have in London.
Clifford, sorry the Mosaic cover art is not “boring” per se. But IMO the one bad thing about the Mosaics I have – is that they never reproduce the original cover art for releases – not even in the booklets. In this case the True Blue cover is iconic and gives me added value.
The other Tina Brooks recording sessions were of course not relased at the time and when they were in Japan they got new cover art. I remember one with a black cat. The Tone Poets also made new art. They are quite nice but maybe a bit atypical and not really Reid Miles level IMO.
Yeah, Minor Move had a nice black cat photo. I agree, it would be nice to have the photos of the albums inside the booklets but Mosaic operates from a discographer’s/sessionographer’s perspective rather than a “commercial album release” standpoint.
Aloha Clifford, question: I’ve never owned a Mosaic set. I remember after college in the mid 1990’s going to record stores and hearing great reviews of these compilations. I must admit, I never purchased one as I saved up to get early or original releases to build a little library of the music. After seeing what that Tina Brooks Blue Note from Korea just sold for I’d be happy with just owning the music. How is the Mosaic Tina set? Are the records mastered from the original Blue Note tapes? I own the early Japanese King releases of Tina and Jackie’s Street Singer along with Tina’s Minor Move and are happy with them. But I believe the Mosaic set has more music, recordings. Look forward to your reply. Mahalo!
Pulled this as I had not heard for a long , long time. “The Individualism of Gil Evans” Verve V-8555 -1964
Not a Bluenote / Prestige/ Riverside , not crazy expensive….. but so enjoyable to listen to.
Yes I know , so many , so many ……..
Joseph, “enjoyable ” is a perfect understatement. This is great music. The presence of Wayne and Elvin alone is a good indicator.
Kyle, The Mosaics were made from the master tapes. There were both CD and LP sets. They sound very good IMO. If they are all analogue for the LPs I cannot say, but the Brooks LP set does indeed sound very fine. 2 of Brooks unissued albums are out on Tone Poets and they are probably the best presentation of that music in every aspect.
And yes Clifford you are correct – it was not their goal to present the albums (or cover art) . There are usually an index in the booklets whrer you can find which sessions that the songs were recorded and another list for which albums that were covered in the set.
The Mosaic Brooks set sounds good. I am told the version of “Minor Move” in the box set has a bit less cymbal phasing than on the King pressing; I assume they did some mastering tweaks to lessen this effect. I’ve not heard the Japanese vinyl to compare. It’s a nice way to get all of this material in one spot if that’s your thing.
The booklet is also very informative and we should keep in mind that the fascination with Brooks’ story and appreciation of his playing took off with the issuing of that box. He was obscure to all but the most diehard collectors in the decades before its release. Now he’s a celebrated artist fifty years after his death. I don’t think that would’ve happened without the Mosaic — arguably the same could be said for Freddie Redd, though Redd’s life was a bit less difficult.
Aloha Anders and Clifford, thank you so much for your input! I have to share with you, though out of college in the mid 90’s, was blessed to get a great beginning education in this wonderful music. Well, there was a tremendous record store here in the East Bay Area (across from San Francisco) whose owner had deep roots to the music. They wanted me to get the music though they knew I love liked originals, it’s kind of in my blood, I joke as I’m part Japanese as we love to collect but I actually listen to the music not just stare at the covers, lol! Certain players that they discussed and wanted me to know about we ones like JR Monterose and Tina but they said to the poor just graduated student with loans to pay, some of these originals are rare and hard to come by. I’m pretty sure he had both the Lexington Monterose and original Brooks for sale at one point. They cost $500.00 in say 1995/96. That was a lot of money, today too! The most I spent then was $100.00 on a very early mono Coltrane Blue Train 47th West 63rd. I thought about that Brooks and other rare ones over the years. Have an original Jackie McLean with Tina on it. I didn’t jump on the Mosaics when I could have, always thinking I might get an original some day. Thank you both again! I believe Mosaic is the way to go for this recording. Mahalo and Arigatou Gozaimasu!
Anders and Clifford, forgot to say, this wonderful jazz record store/owner and his friends wanted me to get the music, so one avenue they shared and thought was even more cost effective than Mosaics at the time were the late 70’s/early 80’s King reissues as well as other sessions that hadn’t been originally released by BN but were on the Japan side. Hope to get a Brooks Mosaic set soon. Mahalo!
kyle, nice stories. I have some japan blue note presses. They are alright. If I were you I would go for the Tone Poets while you can get them. The mosaic box has however the nice booklet, but maybe you can find a scan online somewhere?
Kyle: I too spent many a day and dollar at the record store in Oakland. What a treasure on Claremont Avenue. The owner knew the music and was generous in his advice. As to the music , is there anything more spiritual than listening to a 1st pressing of a 60 year old vinyl of Tina Brooks, Freddie Redd, Walter Davis or Hank Mobley. Scratches and all dont matter that much to me. It’s about the Music! Never do I think about the vinyls value. 1st pressing or Japanese reissues its the music thats important. My 80 year old ears disregard the vinyls imperfections as long as the music remains.
Aloha Anders, thank you for the heads up on Tone Poets, will look into those releases.
Robert, yes the store on Claremont Ave! It was such a magical place outside of hearing the music live. There were days after work I would go to the store, and even after it closed for the day, he’d let me stay and play record after record for me so I would get to hear the different musicians, understand the various styles. I remember one record he wanted me to consider was Pepper Adams playing Mingus on Workshop Jazz. I hadn’t really focused on the baritone sax because I loved the tenor sound along with the alto because of Parker. Yes to your comment about an original 60yr old record even with scratches! And in the end it’s about having the music! Mahalo!
That Pepper Adams Plays Mingus on the Jazz Workshop label( believe was a Motown subsidiary) is one mighty fine lp!!!!!!
Aloha lennib, yes it is a nice record! My friends and mentors at this Oakland Jazz shop wanted me to know there was so much good music, especially from the late 1940’s to late 60’s, changing from shellac to vinyl as a medium and the ushering in of bop, they wanted for me to know there were other great recordings/sessions during this period and many weren’t on the Blue Note label. Nothing against BN but I understand their methodology when it came to a younger person hungry for the music plus having to survive and pay back college loans, lol! I did purchase the Pepper Adams Plays Mingus and it been with me ever since! Jazz Workshop is a small label and I would later pick up a Roy Brooks LP as well. Mahalo!