Mobley, Woods, Morgan and — Pucho?
Catching up today on the mail and some jazz vinyl we missed, starting with Lee Morgan, Candy, Blue Note 1950. This was an original pressing listed in VG++ condition for the record and VG++ for the cover. It sold for $2,350.55. This seller had a bunch of other interesting items and also has a bricks and mortar store in Brooklyn called Northern Lights Records. Anybody been there? I’ll check it out when I return to New York from The Berkshires, sometime in September I would guess. If I was in a buying head, which I’m not, there were a couple of other items from this seller that were perhaps worth a gamble with marginal condition at a potentially reasonable price.One record I’ve sought for a long time is this one: Phil Woods, Woodlore, Prestige 7018. This was an original pressing listed in VG+ condition for the record and VG for the cover. It sold for $229.06. There was also
Hank Mobley, Mobley’s Second Message, Prestige 7082. This one was listed in VG condition for the record and VG+ for the cover. It sold for $191.50. I’d be hesitant to buy a VG record on eBay because it may not be something I’d even be comfortable putting on my turntable. For some reason, this record keeps popping up on my screen or in my inbox. CeeDee sent me a note with a bunch of records, including this copy: Hank Mobley, Mobley’s Second Message, Prestige 7082. This one was in M- condition for the record and VG++ for the cover. It sold for $800. Here are the other records from CeeDee’s list:
Hank Mobley, A Caddy for Daddy, Blue Note 4230. This was a promo copy listed in NM- condition for the record. The seller was somewhat hyperbolic in stating that others might rate it higher, as if there were a higher grade. The cover looked to be about VG+. The price was $326, which seems high to me and probably seemed high to CeeDee as well, which is why he sent me the link, I would assume.
Lee Morgan, The Sidewinder, Blue Note 4157. This was an original mono pressing listed in M- condition for both the record and the cover, although there was very annoying writing on the label. It sold for $349.95, which, again, I presume was perceived as a high price for a record that was fairly common back in the day. Still, it is an original in top condition.
Finally, there was one that had never crossed my path before: Pucho and His Latin Soul Brothers, Jungle Fire, Prestige 7765. This was an original blue label pressing listed in M- condition for the record and excellent for the cover. The seller listed this as “insanely rare” — no, it was not bobdjukic — but just because a record is rare, does that make it valuable. In this case, the value was $316.
That does seem high for “a caddy..”; makes the $25 I paid on eBay for my NM stereo NY USA copy seem like even more of a bargain! Why do people want mono when they are just fold downs of the original stereo recording?
And isn’t this New York pressing essentially a Liberty issue in disguise? I recently held off bidding on a NY USA Jackie McLean’s “action” because I shook my head and realized I had a perfectly mint Liberty issue…essentially pressed at the same time so…??!!
I’ve been to northern lights. His selection is a lot of crap condition crap and he offers none of his top ebay items for sale. Only notable was a very scratched Horace parlance blue note for several hundred. I was very disappointed.
I’ve heard Northern Lights was pretty expensive and considering that Carnahan auctions late 70s Blue Notes I can’t imagine there’s much to look through int his store. Also, condition has been an issue on eBay the couple times I’ve attempted to buy stuff from him – certainly over-graded.
That Pucho is desirable for the funky dudes. Although I couldn’t tell whether the whitish stuff on the record, visible in the photo, was bad lighting or a bunch of mildew on the vinyl…
$350 is absurd for a mono Sidewinder. That is a $40 tops. They must’ve pressed many thousands of copies.
I was at Nothern Lights on the weekend and agree with Gregorythefish. They had nothing of interest out on the floor only a lot of beat up, cheap non interesting LPs. I asked if they had any rarer/better condition items but they said only what was out on the floor. Actually the trend really seems to be that anything of interest or value is sold on eBay now and doesn’t make it to the shelves. I’ve visited 10 shops over the past few days and only turned up 2 LPs worth buying – Jackie McLean – Destination…Out! and Sonny Rollins Quintet – Rollins plays for Bird. Still, I’m happy I got these two.
Regarding the Pucho it’s a Chandelier making the reflection in the playing surfac 😉
Early New York pressings with the “P” are certainly better pressings than the Liberty’s. If they are lacking the “P” not so much better if any.
Collectors want Mono because they are more “original” and since Rudy Mastered them in Mono (single speaker) they feel more original to many collectors.
Isn’t it harder to find an original monp than a later stereo for the Sidewinder title?
I was under the impression that most of the ny era blue notes were mastered in stereo.
MikeC,
Correct, aside from a few transitional exceptions, pretty much everything after 4017 (Horace Silver Blowin’ The Blues Away) was monitored in stereo.
Pucho is a regular $100 to $300+ record and is a staple for the jazz/funk collectors. I’ve had it before and it is a fantastic record!
Mark: https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/guest-post-how-they-heard-it-blue-note-records-and-the-transition-from-mono-to-stereo/
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Greg: Thanks for the heads up, I’m not surprised.
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Mike: The term ‘mastering’ refers to the cutting of the master disk during this time period, so technically (most of) these LPs were mastered in both mono and stereo since Van Gelder prepared both mono and stereo master lacquer disks for the pressing plant. I think you’re talking more about how they were monitored and mixed; see the article linked to above.
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Aaron: According to Van Gelder himself, this is not true. 4017 was one of the first albums recorded at Englewood Cliff in mid 1959, but Van Gelder has claimed that monitoring in mono continued ‘for a few years’ after the move to Englewood Cliffs. How long, we don’t know, but for a few years. Again, see the article linked to above.
Shaft: I contest your generalization that New York ‘P’ pressings are better than Liberty pressings. If both have Van Gelder stamps, I’m positive that the metal work is identical; the other difference is the pressing plant. One can argue that makes a big difference, I would argue that it does not. I’ve had a a handful of experiences where the same title is P and no P and they sounded quite similar to my ears.
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The only difference the label (possibly) makes for no-P Liberty era pressings is that the New York label copies may have been pressed a year or two before the Liberty label copies. The metal work is the same in every instance I’ve seen; all have the Van Gelder stamp. Again, one can argue that the fresher the metal work is the better the pressing will be, but if you consider that pressings two years apart might use mothers made at the exact same time and both use distinct, fresh stampers, the theoretical argument for a New York copy sounding better than a Liberty copy breaks down.
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But this is all splitting hairs in my opinion. The main differentiator between the sound quality of various copies of this vintage–copies, not pressings–is the condition of each copy, and if I were to generalize in any way, I would say that the older the pressing is from that era the more likely its grooves are to have been damaged by inferior playback equipment. In these instances (which I have come across much more than Libertys sounding inferior to New Yorks just because of their label or because they lack the P), it’s quite the opposite, the Liberty is the less worn copy and I can hear the difference.
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The moral to the story is the further you go back it gets harder and harder to find stellar-sounding copies, though New York copies aren’t that far off from Libertys.
The reason that the mono “Audition” blue note pressings go for so much is there were no mono stock copies pressed, only mono “Audition” copies that were sent out to AM radio station. Since it was such a small run all the copies were pressed off fresh, barely used plates.
Rich,Libertys can be great and I have a bunch of them – but then again there are Libertys and there are Libertys as I’m sure you know. You visit the Londonjazzcollector site too 😉
Plastylite pressing are, if treated well, very high quality records and provide for me the best sounding Blue Notes. The are heavy and flat records. Agreed the Liberty pressings can sound quite close given the same condition of the records. I’m not a “first pressing only guy” but I would choose a “P” pressing over a Liberty any day and the market of buyers would pay a premium to get “P” pressing over any Liberty given the same condition of the records.
My whole original point regarding Liberty era blue notes is that a New York label with no “ear” is essentially a Liberty pressing..therefore in these cases I don’t really care if the label says Liberty or New York because neither have the “ear” and therefore there is no difference in sound quality.
Shaft, that’s where I differ with the majority of the market, where most collectors will pay a premium for a P copy. To my ears, whether or not a pressing has the Van Gelder stamp is much more of a differentiator when it comes to sound than whether or not it has the P (obviously–the mastering is completely different when there’s no Van Gelder stamp). In fact, I’d love for someone to attempt demonstrating a difference in sound between P and no-P copies of a title, both with Van Gelder stamps, both EX/NM, both without major pressing defects, both mono or both stereo. My guess is I’m not going to hear a difference, but I would be happy to stand corrected if it could be demonstrated. 🙂
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But mono vs. stereo is another major differentiator in sound, and if you want a mono copy you have no choice but to seek out an original and by default a copy with the P. But if what a collector is really after is mono, I would hope they’re not confusing their preference for mono with a preference for the ‘P’.
Rich – I agree 100%. Would I prefer an original with ‘P’? Sure. But I’m always happy to have a clean Liberty with the original matrix stamper info and Van Gelder. Mark – I have a number of “1966 Liberty” pressings with NY and/or W. 63rd labels but no “P” and they sound identical to the originals to my ears (I’ve played compared a few). Yes, an original is better, but it may not be available or affordable.
chewy here: I saw Pucho one time only: circa 2000-1, have not seen a gig date of his pop up or any mention of him on the internet, since. Does anyone know the whereabouts of pucho and if he still gigs. im assuming hes in nyc, but i have on idea. it was an incredible show, we went 4 nights to the club. i remember one night, Karl Denson actually sat in (in town for his own show at the paramount…himself opening up for neo blue note group MMW)
oh and to make it even MORE mysterious i have never found one of the Pucho prestiges in the wild. i can totally see how they could “go for big bucks” with “whoever is actually dropping hundreds and thousands for jazz lps in 2015”. to this day i dont have any pucho lps in my presige section 🙁
yeah chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez I believe he’s still alive (would be 76 right now). His records from the ’60s and ’70s are surprisingly hard to find.
As I Said there are Libertys an there are Libertys. The early Libertys are generally verk fine pressnings contesting the P NY pressnings. In later years the got thinner and of less quality. Thinner Sunding and less dynamik. But you know this already I’m sure;-)
The Van Gelder hit sound presents a mixed blessing since the records IMO are prone to get groove distortion.
Been to Northern Lights one time during a trip, I am from Italy. Conditions are not that good it is true but they are priced accordingly. Never saw another cheap store in NY as this one, suggestions of other stores are more then welcomed if you think I am wrong.
Bought a lot of items from his ebay too and I don’t think he overgrades. Polite and professional seller, but certainly not the most enjoyable fellow around, quite cold.
I think alot of online sellers open shops to move the trashed pieces etc. There is a store near me that does this. I wont even go in anymore
“Polite and professional seller, but certainly not the most enjoyable fellow around, quite cold.”
well he is from Chicago, I believe… 😉
TheLoner,
I have purchased from him on eBay and was quite pleased. But his store is not in any way worth it to me. I found a little hole in the wall in Brooklyn near him where I got an NM original mono “Round About Midnight” for $15 because the cover had a tear on the back. Now THAT is a store worth visiting. I will look up the name.
Gregorythefish, wow what an impressive hunt!
If you can let me know the name of the shop I will check it during my next trip to NY.
Thanks!
Where’s Al? I need my JC fix! 🙂
Gregory I am assuming that’s probably Human Head? Am I wrong ?