More Love (And Higher Bids) For Blue Note 4200 Records
I was watching the latest auction from the Jazz Record Center, so let’s get into another Blue Note day, starting with Sam Rivers, Contours, Blue Note 4206. This was an original New York USA pressing with the Van Gelder stamp and “Audition Copy” stamped on the back. The record looked to be in M- condition and the cover was probably VG++. The final price was $754. From what I can see on Popsike, this is the second highest price for this record, or any Sam Rivers record. Several years ago, a copy of Contours sold for $810.
From the same auction: Grant Green, Street of Dreams, Blue Note 4253. This was an original mono pressing with the Van Gelder stamp. The record looked to be in M- condition and the cover, based on the pictures, looked to be VG+ to me, although the listing makes it sound more like VG++. I guess the buyer made his own judgment, and judged $935 to be the going rate for this copy.
One of the interesting phenomena of the new market is the rise in bidding for these later Blue Notes of the 4200 era. Here’s another: Jackie McLean, Action, Blue Note 4218. This one looked to be in M- condition for the record and M- for the cover as well. The final price was $1,180. And one more: Lee Morgan, Delightfulee, Blue Note 4243. This was an original mono pressing. The record looked to be M- and the cover probably around VG++. The final price was $404.
This continued rise in value for these records provides a segue to a note I received the other day from Dale, under the subject: Jazz Value Question. Here ’tis:
“Here is something I’ve been thinking about. I’m guessing that most Jazz collectors who have valuable collections are probably pushing 60 years old or older. Of course, there are many exceptions.
1. 20 years or so from now, will the bottom fall out on many of the valuable Jazz records due to lack of demand? (baby boomers will be dying off, many selling collections or estates selling).
2. If one is in that age bracket and has valuable collections (assuming the value is important), what would be the market signs that will show it’s time to unload.
I think this would make a great discussion. Personally, I think we are at the peak right now for Jazz values in general. Plus, all the labels are releasing all these re-issues while the going is good.
Of course, there are many young Jazz collectors, but enough to keep the present values? Maybe on a first pressing Blue Train. Beatles, Zeppelin, etc will have many years ahead….those bands are still played on regular rock radio today.
I would love to see a good discussion on this topic somewhere.”
I wrote back to Dale, noting that we have been having this discussion for years here at Jazz Collector. But I also said it’s always of prime interest to the community and, when we experience major changes in the market, as we’re seeing with the records listed in this post, it is always interesting to recalibrate our opinions. I know I have done so over the past two years in watching the market change during Covid and seeing a new coterie of younger collectors, who apparently have money.
Clifford; you would have much to talk about for sure! Both of you with respect and love for the past but always with main focus on the present. You might also have appreciated his way of often pricing after quality instead of market value:)
Instagram is a place for congratulations and “wow” ,and “killer session” words, not for debate. Apparently, Jazzcollectors is a better place for thoughtful and unthoughtful conversation ! It is also very interesting to read jazzmen interviews and records reviews from the era for example on Downbeat or other magazine (the Coltrane – Dolphy – Tynan controversy in 1962 comes to mind)… It is full of debate. It is useful to replace music and musicians in the politocal, economic, social and artistic background of the era.
Paul – then don’t read them. And let others have their fun. Don’t you have a wet blanket to sit under?
Michel – While there certainly is no shortage of shallow commentary on IG, there area also plenty of in depth discussions, within the confinement of character limits of course. However, some of the most informative debates happen in private group chats between some collectors who have formed real friendships over the years. Do not underestimate the value of social media to the community of jazz vinyl collectors and the positive impact it has had on many of us (yes I know, IG is owned by Facebook and the thought of that is nauseating. But when used right, this platform can be beneficial on many levels).
I’m an IG poster of jazz records. I tend not to review but simply state that I like the session…I have been collecting for 25 plus years. Why do I feel compelled to post records from my collection? Honestly I have no idea. I just think these things are cool and I enjoy sharing pictures of them and I enjoy the camaraderie. As far as collecting goes: I simply don’t have it in me to do the things you need to do to acquire records anymore. Honestly it has to be an obsessive type of pursuit, at least for me, to constantly go to the stores and constantly scour online shops etc..and after having taken a break from collecting starting about 10 years ago and recently revisiting my collection (trying to fill the holes) I am very disappointed how hard it is to win an auction on ebay at a reasonable price and the sheer numbers of collectors especially on IG is shocking to me, even trying to buy a record on IG seems almost impossible. Personally I can get pretty bitter about it but at the end of the day theres no fault to placed on anyone. Jazz vinyl is just way more popular and dare I say “hip” than it ever has been. Just look at what has happened to the reissue market. I personally don’t read IG reviews, but I appreciate the people who do write them. Mr. Pari and others are very nice people to interact with and like Mark stated, I can’t talk about how something like groove wear bothers me with my wife! The ONE thing that seems to be missed here in this conversation is how GREAT this is for the actual art form of JAZZ. I dare say more young Americans are into jazz than at any point in the last 50 years. This is nothing but a boon for JAZZ. All the bitterness is ridiculous. Some of these people are just pissed they can’t buy $500 records from little old widows for $2 a piece as easy as they used to!!! @daviokramer
Nailed it with the last sentence especially, David.
Also – What is a review? It is a summary of one’s opinion of the record. Anyone is qualified to make one. I listen, and I have opinions. The notion that one must somehow earn the right to have opinions worth reading, on one’s own online hobby account no less, is laughable.
Hey David, nice to see you here!
FYI I did point out earlier in the thread how IG has helped get a younger generation interested in jazz. I have plenty of followers who don’t appear to be collectors, I have no idea what motivates them to follow a jazz vinyl feed. Maybe they are casual listeners, maybe they just dig the cover art, I really don’t know. But the fact that there’s so much interest in vintage jazz vinyl is further evidence for the market being stronger than ever. Much of it has to do with the vinyl resurgence in general, and naturally there will be plenty of people for whom this is just a fad until they move on to the next big thing. But the idea that collecting jazz vinyl is a hobby just for a few dozen old geezers with deep pockets is clearly wrong.
I do understand the frustration with IG driving up prices, and it frustrates me as well. It’s almost impossible to score a clean rare Blue Note album on eBay for a realistic price anymore. But that’s just a sign of demand and supply. It would be selfish to hope for the popularity of jazz vinyl to fade away only so a few of us get to enjoy lower prices. I think the art form of jazz has benefited from the popularity of jazz vinyl, at least to a certain degree, which is why some argue the genre is more popular than it has been since the swing era.
@Greg Exactly. Thousands of followers and hundreds of comments serve as proof that there is an interest in such content, no matter how clumsy one might think it is written. There’s an increased interest in jazz, which hurts no one, so I really don’t get the hostile reaction from a handful of elitists who believe they have a claim on one acceptable way to collect jazz vinyl.
I am late in this discussion for the simple reason that my experience at IG is recent and limited.
If our Jazzcollector site is primarily focusing on the market, I.e. the $ 1000 bin, etc, and LondonJazzCollector not on prices, but on label variations, pressings and related discussions, IG is a vehicle allowing aficionados to exhibit their new finds or collections. I don’t see what could be wrong with that. True, many wows, likes, etc, but also comments which allow to further deepen the subject. The other day on IG I made a discovery re my Danish Metronome pressings of Atlantic thanks to the input of a Dutch collector.
There is a special feature which I like, one can communicate in your own language, the translation button is available. I see postings in Thai, Japanese, Dutch, Swedish Russian and French. My account is in French and I have options for all other languages.
I know at least two Dutch accounts who are offering records for sale through IG.
I’d echo many of the comments that have already been made, in terms of there not being one way to collect. I’m relatively active on instagram, and I see people who are what I’ll call “lifestyle posters” who choose to pose with their latest acquisition, others who post every single record that hits their turntable, even if it’s 5 posts per day, and many more who simply snap an out of focus photo and leave it that. Some, like myself, try and write a review or reaction to a record as a means of better understanding the material and soliciting conversation. I think everyone is on a different journey in their collecting, and I think you’ll find generally speaking that the Instagram community is earlier in that process and therefore not as knowledgeable vs. the folks who show up frequently here to comment about the rising market for jazz records.
The worst part of Instagram for me is not the grandstanding, bragging, fetishism of vinyl, verbose posts, or the questionable argument that instagram is the reason why two people continually bid up JRC’s ebay auctions. Instead, it’s the few who post comments as a means of tearing others down. People that take the time to criticize or otherwise diminish the excitement and enjoyment that others feel in the hobby is the absolute worst. If that’s your game, please avoid Instagram altogether. We don’t want you.
Mr. Brown…I agree, theres enough nastiness in this world. Everyone knows bitter record collectors, people who think they are special because of their collection or they think somehow others are stealing from them because they found the record stash before them or that there are new collectors in this game and they are ruining it for them! …there used to be that argument before social media about the Japanese dealers, they were pretty relentless in scouring the local shops, but they were a boon for store owners and probably kept some of them afloat for awhile. Collectors in my experience can be a nasty breed of people(read narcissistic) and fairly greedy as well. Some of these guys find their way into the Instagram world. Nothing like when one of these guys snaps up his third copy of a record for pennies, when you inquire if he’d mind selling it because it would fill a big hole in your collection and they run straight to popsike find that one auction from 2012 that went for $850 and say sure…I’ll take $900 for it. My best friends in this game have been the ones that trade and sell to each other from a place of camaraderie and keep the greed to a minimum. As far as Instagram, if you think the Blue Note thing is overhyped, I get it, I think it is too, but being nasty on instagram about it is foolish.