More Love (And Higher Bids) For Blue Note 4200 Records
I was watching the latest auction from the Jazz Record Center, so let’s get into another Blue Note day, starting with Sam Rivers, Contours, Blue Note 4206. This was an original New York USA pressing with the Van Gelder stamp and “Audition Copy” stamped on the back. The record looked to be in M- condition and the cover was probably VG++. The final price was $754. From what I can see on Popsike, this is the second highest price for this record, or any Sam Rivers record. Several years ago, a copy of Contours sold for $810.
From the same auction: Grant Green, Street of Dreams, Blue Note 4253. This was an original mono pressing with the Van Gelder stamp. The record looked to be in M- condition and the cover, based on the pictures, looked to be VG+ to me, although the listing makes it sound more like VG++. I guess the buyer made his own judgment, and judged $935 to be the going rate for this copy.
One of the interesting phenomena of the new market is the rise in bidding for these later Blue Notes of the 4200 era. Here’s another: Jackie McLean, Action, Blue Note 4218. This one looked to be in M- condition for the record and M- for the cover as well. The final price was $1,180. And one more: Lee Morgan, Delightfulee, Blue Note 4243. This was an original mono pressing. The record looked to be M- and the cover probably around VG++. The final price was $404.
This continued rise in value for these records provides a segue to a note I received the other day from Dale, under the subject: Jazz Value Question. Here ’tis:
“Here is something I’ve been thinking about. I’m guessing that most Jazz collectors who have valuable collections are probably pushing 60 years old or older. Of course, there are many exceptions.
1. 20 years or so from now, will the bottom fall out on many of the valuable Jazz records due to lack of demand? (baby boomers will be dying off, many selling collections or estates selling).
2. If one is in that age bracket and has valuable collections (assuming the value is important), what would be the market signs that will show it’s time to unload.
I think this would make a great discussion. Personally, I think we are at the peak right now for Jazz values in general. Plus, all the labels are releasing all these re-issues while the going is good.
Of course, there are many young Jazz collectors, but enough to keep the present values? Maybe on a first pressing Blue Train. Beatles, Zeppelin, etc will have many years ahead….those bands are still played on regular rock radio today.
I would love to see a good discussion on this topic somewhere.”
I wrote back to Dale, noting that we have been having this discussion for years here at Jazz Collector. But I also said it’s always of prime interest to the community and, when we experience major changes in the market, as we’re seeing with the records listed in this post, it is always interesting to recalibrate our opinions. I know I have done so over the past two years in watching the market change during Covid and seeing a new coterie of younger collectors, who apparently have money.
love the Sam Rivers output.
Of course, most people over 65 + grew up with the 50’s and early 60’s jazz, and have less with the late output of shorter, Rivers, mcLean or Hill.. but then again.. those people already bought most of the albums in the fifties and sixties so i don’t think they are a major player on the market (only in selling)
i think most big buyers of BN are between 30 and 60.. so there will be buyers for the next decades.. and young people
also dig classic jazz and collecting, especially BN that has a Cult status.
And the moment somebody says we ‘are now at the highpoint of prices” i start ‘sweeping up the Tips i’ve made’ ( Paul Simon- papa hobo) because i know the prices are gettin’ higher and higher.
There was an interesting piece in The Guardian a few years ago about how the bottom has fallen out of the market for Elvis Presley records because …
“with many Elvis fans and collectors well into their 70s and 80s, as each year goes by, more are lost. This then floods the market with their wares.”
https://www.theguardian.com/music/shortcuts/2017/may/07/elvis-presley-memorabilia-plummeting-in-price
The same doesn’t seem to be happening with Blue Note. Many of the records discussed here are older than the Elvis records mentioned in the article, and the Blue Notes’ prices are certainly holding up.
If you are worried about the market, it is my personal opinion that you are worried about the wrong thing, though understandably so. Listen to your records and enjoy them. Cherish the thrill of the hunt. If I were to look at my records as a monetary investment, I would be miserable, thinking of having to sell off cherished treasures.
We shall see where the market is when my family history of dementia and memory issues catches up with me in 40 years, because THAT is when I will worry about selling my records. This is not a value judgement on anyone’s part. It is just how I think about it. My collection is a library for me.
Having said that, the bottom is already collapsing for mid-fifties bop that is not on a label called Blue Note or Prestige. Great early Savoy titles that used to go for $25-$50 are now routinely in the $10-$15 range. Other than dates that have been widely hyped by the Blue Note halo effect, such as “Kenny Dorham and the Jazz Prophets”, this trend is everywhere. We are moving from “50’s – 60’s” into “60’s-70’s”.
Jazz albums have the best chance to continue appreciation. They are more “Art” then other types of music – visually and musically via improvisation and interpretation. When objects are viewed as modern “Art” they have a better chance of gaining value over time – especially mid-century vintage originals on strong labels with great Artists and cool covers.
That Jazz Record Center’s ebay auctions are now so heavily weighted toward Blue Note is curious. Is JRC using these ‘blue chip’ records as a way of attracting potential customers to their shop? And what does it say about the perceived value of record labels other than Blue Note?
I think truly clean albums, such as the one JRC (yes, I have bought from them recently) and a handful of others, will continue to go for a premium because they are very so hard to find in top condition. The same has been happening for Prestige (just ask out Prestige guru here). As far as timing, I am with “gregory the fish” when it comes to how I approach this hobby and my eventual exit strategy from it.
Re Prestige, I sold a mint copy of Mobley’s Message for something like $ 2500. Top condition is the name of the game. The music on this album is excellent too. I kept the corresponding Esquire in my collection. I did the same for 2 and 3 Trumpets, ditto for Soultrane, where I kept the Metronome original.
Also, some artists are more in the limelight than others. Mobley, Morgan etc. People are ready to pay top prices for top quality.
Rudolf, don’t forget the 3 Gene Ammons you sold last year for well over 1,000 USD. I was able to get one yours, and it is a pleasure to listen to.
In 50 years old…so I don’t know if I’m a typical collector. I just bought a 1st pressing Sonny Rollins “4 Plus” in VG+/M- condition for about $350…I’m still in the acquisition phase of my collecting and at some point see myself buying a “grail”–Sonny Clark “Cool Struttin”, for example–but am VERY wary of over-paying. I believe the best value buys are Donald Bryd, Art Blakely, Dexter Gordon and Sonny Rollins…and maybe some Miles Davis recordings. Hank Mobley and Lee Morgan are strong, but it’s hard to get really good deals. I make over six-figures, so there is no record that is completely out-of-range money-wise, if I want it badly enough.
However, I don’t collect exclusively for investment value. I listen to my records…and I take excellent care of them…and will eventually upgrade from a Project VC-E to a Degritter ultrasonic cleaner.
I said all of that to say this: while I am a buyer, I’m a value hunter. I like 1st press monos in VG+ condition between $250 – $500 that are over-looked…Prestige, Impulse, etc. I don’t care about the market, per se…because I will almost NEVER sell. It’s not about the money…it’s about the music.
Hardbopster: that is correct. I overlooked the Gene Ammons albums, one of which went for over $ 1400. I am glad you enjoy yours.
If it’s only about the music and not the money, why not go with audiophile reissues? I’ve heard that they can sound very good.
G the F is spot on. The changing generations direct the overall demand of artists. When I started collecting Goodman, Ellington Parker and Gillespie were in demand ,today we see a general upward trend in prices for the Avant Garde , a generation that now wants to remember the past. This will continue as generations change. If want to see moving trends just look at the other side of e-bay and what is either not selling or fetching low prices . Also the Blue Note label does not represent jazz ,it is only part of the history and should be kept in perspective. Blue Note Ist pressings etc will eventually split into Collectors based on investment only ,never to be played , and the few jazz lovers still yearning for a first edition that have money. What worries me more is the jazz recorded history that is lost with the constant narrowing of jazz to the “cool” artists , I am retired and still buy to explore the most beautiful music in the world ,JAZZ
Paul,
That is a very logical idea, and ordinarily I am a logic guy.
Frustratingly, logic is only part of the equation, I fear. First pressings are fun for me personally because they feel truly connected to the creation of the music. But that is just me.
I don’t think we are at the peak yet; I think we may just be getting started.
Unlike Elvis Presley or the Beatles, jazz from the 50s and 60s was not, and will never, be popular music. However–and more importantly–the music is a timeless art form for those with the ears for it. I suspect that the vast, vast majority of people who own rare and sought after Blue Notes, etc., are not the original purchasers; most baby boomers were too young or not alive to purchase Cool Struttin’ in 1958. Instead, most people who are alive likely purchased these albums not contemporaneously with the release of these albums, but later, because they, like all of us here, appreciate the music and consider the music timeless decades later. So, I don’t think the eventual passing of the baby boomer generation will also be the death knell for interest in jazz from this period.
In fact, I think the demand for original pressings is going to increase significantly in coming decades, and one reason for that is the proliferation of jazz education programs in recent decades, as well as the harsh economic realities of being a professional jazz musician. The number of collegiate jazz programs today absolutely dwarfs the number of programs available when baby boomers were in college. Accordingly, there are thousands of people graduating each year from music programs–many of whom studied jazz–across the country, but only a select few will actually pursue jazz as a profession or will be successful at it. So, although these graduates understand and love jazz, they end up pursuing more lucrative careers because there simply isn’t enough work for all of these graduates. This results in greater demand for the albums compared to the generations with fewer music programs, and it also results in people who have the means to purchase expensive records, because they have to pursue careers outside of jazz. I, for instance, studied jazz performance in college almost two decades ago, and despite being a decent player I opted to pursue a more conventional career because I wasn’t prepared for the struggle of trying to “make it” as a musician. Some peers of mine tried to make and did, while others tried to make it and ultimately settled with a white-collar job too. There are many people like me who understand the art form, have a deep personal tie to it, have the means to pay high prices for original pressings to, foolishly or not, feel closer to the milieu. Until jazz programs get canned or population growth stops as its projected to do so at the end of the century, I think the increase in prices will be a sustained march higher.
My analysis doesn’t even touch the thousands of people who love jazz without a musical background. The vinyl resurgence undoubtedly is increasing the demand among that cohort, but I suspect that even if the resurgence fades there are many people who have now discovered jazz and have developed a permanent attachment to it. Although all of the recent audiophile pressings creates a glut in the availability of a vinyl copy of Cool Struttin’, etc., the additional supply may serve to increase interest in jazz, and ultimately there will always be a fixed number of coveted originals that were pressed. These originals will always remain rare, historical artifacts, and if the demand continues to escalate, the prices should follow.
Some good points have been made on this thread. At the risk of sounding like a broken record (pun intended and really proud of it), 1950s and 1960s jazz records have become much more than just vessels that carry music, they are now considered historical artifacts, that with each year are becoming more scarce and age more. I don’t believe that prices are leveling off, I think they will continue to rise. All it takes is a few dozen die-hard collectors with deep pockets to engage in bidding wars on eBay, and there will always be more collectors than there are vintage records in great condition.
Another factor is the timelessness of original Blue Note and some Prestige/Riverside/Contemporary/etc titles .. from the elegant design of the jackets to the high quality production, these will never go out of style, unlike many records released in the 1970s and 1980s.
There increasing prices of 4200 series releases and early Liberty titles reflect a trend towards increasing popularity of 1970s jazz / spiritual jazz / jazz-funk-fusion genres. Whether these prices will continue to hold or if these are just a fad, I don’t know. But I’m willing to put money on the theory that original Blue Note vinyl from the 50s and 60s will remain in demand and prices will continue to climb.
While it’s probably true that most of the high-rollers holding the rarest records are in their 50s and above, I see many young collectors on Instagram who have started buying rare and expensive records. While I gasped at $500 albums a decade ago, my own house limit has since tripled. You just get used to it, although I’m not sure how many more ceilings I’ll be able to break on my current budget.
I think in years to come, there will be fewer jazz record collectors, but they will have the funds and passion to drive prices higher. DJ Pari was correct when he said…”All it takes is a few dozen die-hard collectors with deep pockets…..” Also, condition will become more important than ever as years go on. And the younger crowd, after losing money investing in NTFs, will eventually understand that a Hank Mobley lp on Blue Note from the 50s or a Mantle or Berra card from 1952 are real collectibles that will continue to appreciate. I believe there will be an escalation in prices of certain labels. I think the price of Impulse lps will continue their recent escalation, and prices of very small labels will rise greatly. In general, I think in 20 years prices will be far higher than they are now.
Just a few thoughts; collecting and increased prices are usually driven by nostalgia. People invest in their youth and childhood when they have the time and money to do so. Jazz vinyl is different in that way. When I sell punk- or indie records the buyers are most of the times people who were a part of the scene – or at least a part of the time. But when I sell jazz vinyl the buyers are often so young that not even their parents are old enough to have experienced the artists in their prime or bought first pressings on arrival. Jazz is a good music to get old with and it is also varied enough to keep your interest up over a long time. I think there will be trends within jazz were prices goin up rapidly or stagnate, sometimes for hyped titles and sometimes for whole genres. I saw that vinyl word mentioned that prices on avant garde are goin upwards but my experience are that the prices of avant garde and free jazz stagnated and even had a decline more than a decade ago. I can still get a random FMP or Incus for the same price or less as 15 years ago but almost all mid to late 50s quality jazz has passed those prices with lightning speed. I am sure there will be other shifts back and forward but I don’t think I will live to see prices of ECM pass by the BN 1500-series. I also think it is important that the reissues keep coming and that new vinyl are released in a way that different kinds of collecting are possible. It gives a less dusty environment so to speak and also keep stores open and new equipment available which I think is necessary to keep the interest and prices up. I remember in the 90s when I actually was worried about the possibilities to get a new pick up and thought about hoarding a bunch:)
Collectors will continue to pay top dollar for original first pressings, there was a eBay auction that ended Nov 6th of this year, that basically got very very little conversation on this site, that was that guys personal collection, it was not some deceased relative as stated, those records went for record prices and unless i missed it , not one of those Blue note records were listed in NM condition, most where listed below, yet he sold over $100,000 in records, with a few going above the $ 5,000 mark
There is something special about having a original 1st pressing (especially BLUE NOTE) we all know how Blue Note records started and how meticulous the sessions where and they were paid artist session, something no other record company did with their artist at the time. and the covers alone were just as special, sometimes i flip thru my collection just to admire the great cover art.
As far as age and collection, not all collectors are 50 and above, there ids a guy on Instagram who in my opinion has the best record collection i have seen, and i know he has all the first pressing Blue notes, the entire run , i have heard him mention it in a post, and he routinely post records of other labels in really nice pristine condition, he can’t be no more than 35 years old, i don’t know him personally, but i can tell he is a serious collector
In historical terms, Blue Note is a mid-tier player, yet it commands all the attention of collectors. We see this phenomenon with all types of collectibles- a few brands or labels go stratospheric as members of the collector-herd attempt to pump up the prestige value of their holdings. Many of the newly acquired treasures are promptly displayed on Instagram, in order to shock and awe the competition. Some of these collectors are self-appointed reviewers, thinking that the ability to acquire expensive records somehow qualifies them to deliver extemporaneous reviews online. Blame it on the pandemic or the rise of social media, or any number of other corrosive influences, it is little more than tiring and nauseating one-upsmanship.
Paul, beautifully said. I feel for these vulnerable individuals who are placing so much weight on the opinions of these jazz vinyl Instagram “experts”. Leonard Feather they are not. This social media phenomenon is not isolated to just this community. It’s quite rampant and at the end of the day I feel for the sheep who follow their false prophets. In fact is this not part of what we find as a driving force in our political world today? Every pleb has their opinion and thinks they have the right and knowledge to telecast it to the world.
You nailed it with the fact that they self promote what they have. A few of them even allude to when the same pressing is on eBay or another site. The only reason I can suspect one would post at such a time and do such self promotion is to to try and drive up the price and demand and hence the value of their collections.
End of the day this is all speculation. And unless I see the credentials to justify it, I ignore it. Listen to the experts. Hint, they’re not on Instagram.
Hi – I just want to say that I really appreciate the discussion here and it gives a lot of “food for thought”.
The prices and the development of them over time is of course a very hot topic and partly a reason for this jazzcollector site (apart from all the wonderful stories about music and collecting). The prices for OGs have really rocketed in the last years but also the more desirable records were relatively expensive evn in the 80’s if I understand it right. What I mean by relatively is that OG’s BN were more expensive than the usual Reissue or later pressings.
Anyway the prices are a result of market interest and the supply of OGs. IMO classiv bebop jazz is an artform that will probably as some stated still be listened to in 50+ years or so. It’s timeless just as the classical music has become timeless in a sense. The older jazz has not faired so well – it feels old to most of us and it’s on mediums that is problematic in an OG sense – i.e. 78s, shellacs etc. So demand has fallen out in a way that I don’t foresee that will happen with classic jazz from 50’s and 60’s. But who knows? My kids in the early 20’s are not yet interested in jazz or jazz LPs.
But interest in jazz LPs are really high now IMO. For instance – the facebook group “Jazz Vinyl Lovers” have 10.600 members and that is a lot of people buying jazz LPs. Not everyone buys OGs of course but the interest is high and some buyers that start off with reissues or audiophile will continue to go back to the source and buy original pressings.
Paul- Blue Note is “mid-tier”? Really?!?!?? What makes you say that? Historically speaking almost every jazz legend has recorded with them. The records where meticulously produced and recorded. What am I missing?
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at the prices for these later Blue Notes but I remember not so long ago when you could pick up any one of those in top condition for less than $100 a piece, maybe quite a bit less. Great records, sure, but Action closing in at over a grand? Crazy. I’ve been collecting for 25 years but I’ve never been rich so will have to relegate myself to bottom-feeding or another hobby.
I’m not sure if you all are talking about the same IG “reviewer” that I also follow, but I have mixed opinions. To be sure, much of the time the review feels like little more than listing off the sidemen who “round things out nicely” or whatever, but occasionally he’ll post a record I’m not familiar with that looks interesting. But what annoys me (for no real good reason, really) is how he’ll say something like, “Thanks to #RecordStoreName for this clean copy.” So I wonder if this is a paid placement, if you will, or if the guy has actually purchased the record. And if he has, then why give them a free mention? And why 50 hash tags? Is it about boosting those follower numbers? Help me, I’m over 50 and trying my best to understand all of this! 🙂
A brief comment on the music vs. money stuff. I’ll admit I straddle the line. I love Jazz, and one of my life’s great pleasures is sitting down at night with a cocktail and dropping the needle. At the same time, I am proud of the collection I’ve been lucky enough to build over the years, and am well aware of its value. I mean, it’s hard for any of us here to ignore, isn’t it? Ultimately, my records represent a love of the music, a hobby, and also an investment, and just as someone with a stock portfolio would, I enjoy seeing values rise because I know I have a nice rainy day fund if/when I need it.
Japhy, I doubt you are talking about me (jazz_peasant), as I do not have very many Blue Notes compared to some others and am often accused of being too verbose, but I know that most of us mention the store because we like the store and want to drive business their way. I buy a record at a store, and if I like the store, I shout them out. I do it for individuals I do business with, as well. Everyone likes that. No small record shop has the budget or stock to give out huge discounts for IG promotion, and none ever do it outside of the occasional ~5% discount on huge orders that some shops will automatically give anyone (I know Prex does 3% off over $100 and Dusty Groove does something off over $400, but I forget what).
And yes, the huge number of hashtags (limited to 30) is for engagement. It really does make a difference!
Also Paul and Mike: Sorry it makes you mad that a handful of us have established a community on Instagram. But a lot of us know more than you might think. Then again, some of us are under 40 so we must be idiots.
I’ve been an observer and casual participant on IG for about a year, and am also a long-time collector on the wrong side of 40. Like all free, user-generated content it can be a mixed bag. But I’ve found some interesting records based on reviews and recommendations. There are many people who genuinely love music.
Perhaps DJ Pari isn’t Leonard Feather, but Leonard Feather is very much dead and Pari isn’t, so I shall continue to enjoy his reviews.
i’m with Greg about shouting out retailer/individual sellers to boost their business. Many records have shot up in price, but it’s still a difficult business to be in so every bit of support counts.
Also I rarely read reviews unless it’s something I’m not familiar with. For me Instagram has been a great way to discover and buy new music, and it’s not a bad way to catalogue your collection either.
The irony in some of the comments above is blaring, you use this particular web-based platform to critique those of us reviewing jazz albums on another web-based platform (IG). That literally made me laugh out loud.
Seriously, it’s this elitist, holier-than-thou attitude that gives jazz vinyl collectors such a bad rep of being nerds that have managed to not only retain rare albums, but also their virginity at age 50. Congrats! If folks sharing their collection on social media bothers you enough to preach from the mountaintop, then you seriously need to go get laid.
To Paul: Ignorance is bliss. I’ve made a living of writing for 25 years, much of it in music, so I believe that this does make me qualified to “deliver extemporaneous reviews online” (I’m glad you believe our posts are oh so casually written – mission accomplished). But even those who are not professional writers, who are you to judge them for sharing their records and their views about the music? You’re doing the same thing here, just for a much smaller audience, don’t you? We all have opinions, it’s just that some of us are less judgmental than others.
And FWIW: When a poster credits a certain record store for acquiring a particular title on IG, that’s not because they are getting paid for this promotion. But as collectors and diggers (who actually go out several times a week and get our hands dirty instead of just hitting the “BIN” button on eBay from the comfort of your home), we are very well aware that most record stores are struggling to keep the lights on. By getting the word out , we are helping them build a reputation as a good source for jazz vinyl. Anyone who sees something wrong with that needs to get their head (and heart) examined. I don’t know any jazz collector who gets paid for promotion on IG, although some of us every now and then get freebies from record labels to review. Are you gonna be mad about that, too?
The bottom line is, some of y’all are taking yourselves and this hobby of collecting jazz vinyl way too seriously. There are a bunch of us who enjoy sharing our vinyl on Instagram, and many of us are getting great feedback from our followers, whether they are fellow veteran collectors, rookies, teenagers, hot chicks into vinyl or what not, if they enjoy and appreciate, and they get hip to music and artists that weren’t on their radar, this can be only good for the future of jazz, or not? Because that’s tapping into the musical instincts of a new generation that will continue to collect and, more importantly, play these records.
So if you want to limit the jazz-vinyl collectors community to a dozen of old geezers shooting the crap on this forum and revel in your own need for exclusivity and elitism, knock yourselves out. But don’t get annoyed that others have decided to have a little bit more fun with this.
As someone who participates in the IG jazz community, and also posts brief reviews, I wanted to add my two cents about it.
I started because I saw a lot of folks who were knowledgeable about jazz and records posting and I enjoyed following them and engaging in discussion. It is pretty much the only social media I do.
Second, I sell very little and none of the stuff I post is for sale. I post to join the conversation and share in discussion of the music. It has led to friendships and very good discussions about the music.
On listing the stores where I mace made purchases, I do so for the same reason as DJ Pari: to give these stores some attention. I have become friends with some of them and want their businesses to succeed. It is also partially for this reason that I rarely sell on eBay anymore and instead trade with stores.
I love having my collection and I’ve loved the process of building it over the years. I love going in deep and putting on a record I haven’t listened to in years and making what feels like a new discovery. I love putting on some of my old favorites and listening to them with the ears I have today, remembering when I first bought those records or listened to them for the first time, or even when I first discovered the artists. In the past few days I’ve put on Dexter Rides Again, Off to the Races, Johnny Griffin A Blowing Session, A Love Supreme. I put on Africa/Brass for the first time in years and was blown away, once again, as if I’d never heard it before. Trane’s first record on Impulse and what a fucking statement it was. It has never once occurred to me not to put a record on the turntable because it is valuable. It’s cool that the records have value, but that’s not the reason I bought them or keep them. Definitely lucky to be in this position and have a passion I can enjoy and share with this community.
Pari pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you don’t appreciate our input, don’t read it. Simple as that. Anyone is qualified to share their opinion on an album. Being publicly shamed for it, even if it’s as minor as a comment on a forum,is completely uncouth and proof that you have way too much time on your hands and no life of your own. Create something new, or contribute positively to something that exists. If you have time to vent about those following false prophets on Instagram, I suggest you channel your anger in a more positive direction. There are hundreds (likely thousands) of falsely imprisoned people, millions living under oppressive regimes, children without food or education, and archaic policies still in place. If you have time to moan about a guy reviewing an album on Instagram, you have time to write a congressman/congresswoman, sponsor a child, volunteer at the food bank, or just read book instead of my reviews.
@Strictlyheadies, bless your heart and your complete Blue Note catalog that 99.9% of jazz vinyl collectors wished they owned
And that 37.4% of jazz vinyl collectors are conspiring to acquire through nefarious means.
When I first opened my used record store in 1978 the most expensive stuff was Doo-Wop and oldies original issues. Some of the cheapest stuff was private issue punk 7″s. Of course Doo Wop is no longer valuable and punk 7″s command big prices. The one thing that remained constant throughout our entire time in business and up to the present, was (is) high prices and high demand for 50s and 60s Jazz originals (mostly Blue Note and Prestige). Japanese collectors and foreign and domestic dealers would be at our door constantly. I even got a book size print out from one Japanese dealer showing what he wanted, what he would pay and what different markings needed to be present (this is how I learned of deep groove labels, Lex. Ave addresses etc.). In other words Jazz records like the ones we talk about have always and I believe, will always be top of the market. And the music is great.
Al, bravo. You said it all.
Paul, Mike – your comments about people posting their jazz record records on IG seems to have stirred up quite a response. I see that several of my IG friends have leapt to the defence of the community. I could easily have joined in with that last night but I thought that a good night’s sleep would put me in a more constructive frame of mind today. So I now offer you a few observations in what I hope you will take as a constructive spirit commensurate with the season.
First, you seem to be aggrieved by people offering their own reviews. Sure, I happily accept that many us are not Leonard Feather or Nat Hentoff or Ralph Gleason or whoever but that does not negate a person’s right to hold an opinion and to express that opinion. I would urge to look on these reviews more charitably. Developing an appreciation for jazz is the journey of a lifetime – we all started with little or no knowledge and have built it up gradually over years of dedication, discovery and diligence. For somebody to express where they currently are on that journey in an IG posting is an act of courage and shows that person has at least put some thought into where they are on this challenging journey. We are all still on that journey.
Second, you seem to tar us all with the same brush that our motive for posting on IG is some sort of oneupmanship or self-aggrandisement. Please reconsider whether that is too sweeping a generalisation. I can only speak to my own reasons for posting on IG which I’ll describe here and invite you to consider if others who post on IG perhaps also share my approach. I’ve been collecting jazz records for over 35 years and going to jazz gigs for almost as long. Before me, my dad was also a jazz fan and I inherited some of his records that he bought new in the 1950s. He was one of the lucky people who got to see Miles Davis live on his first ever UK concert tour in 1960. The point here is that I’ve built up a lot of knowledge and experience through my journey and I post on IG to share that knowledge and experience with newer collectors and in the hope that other longstanding collectors will share their knowledge and experience with me. That way we mutually benefit each other and help to protect each other from unscrupulous individuals who might seek to take advantage of gaps in our knowledge.
Slightly to one side, Japhy also touches on the practice of name-checking a shop who sold us a record. Guilty as charged – I do this. My reason is simply common courtesy to express my gratitude to somebody who has helped me find something elusive on my “want list”. Times are tough in retail and bricks-and-mortar record shops deserve all the support we can give them. I’ve never asked for, expected or been offered a kick-back for such mentions.
So let’s finish with some positive encouragement: Paul, Mike – there are many folk in the IG jazz community who I humbly suggest are worth your time and attention. Several of them have commented above in this thread and I hope they’ll be willing to share their IG names here so you have the option to sample their postings and perhaps find them to your liking – give it a go, you’ve got nothing to lose. I’ll get the ball rolling: you can see my stuff at @intosomethin
Martin — mic drop! (This is where I’d insert the applause emoji, or rather half a dozen of them)
In seasonal spirit,
@djpari_
Hey. I follow all you guys on IG. I’m just waiting for the “Everything Must Go–75% off sale”
I’m curious what Justin meant about. I honestly have no idea.
@gregory the fish Failed attempt at injecting humor into a tense discussion with an obviously false statistic. Should have followed Martin’s advice and posted after a good night’s sleep.
Amen, al!
40 comments wow. Anyway I’m with Al..haven’t been collecting nearly as long but started around the early 90s at last as far as jazz goes. I’m aware of “values” but play all my records and just enjoy the music and sound of those original issues. Instagram is fun if not simply because I can nerd out with fellow jazz collectors because neither my friends nor family could care less about jazz. @homefromtheforest
Justin – all good. No offense taken. I just genuinely didn’t understand. As long as you aren’t trying to be a doofus to others for no reason, I say post with reckless abandon! 🙂
As someone who occasionally visits Instagram, I don’t appreciate all the grandstanding and ego-stroking, and the pseudo reviews from collectors who are (painfully obvious) not qualified to give them. And as I previously said, the endless emphasis on all things Blue Note is tiresome. I completed my jazz collection years ago, and I simply enjoy the music.
Paul, we have different goals. You’ve completed your collection—this is fantastic! I’m sure you have a wonderful jazz collection that will bring you joy for years to come. You can play your records and forget all about Instagram.
I’m still exploring. When I joined IG, I encountered maybe a couple grandstanding accounts. I unfollowed them and moved on. If anything, IG has steered me further away from Blue Note fetishism. My want list now filled with a greater variety of artists. Some of these records are collectible (New Jazz, Strata East, etc.), but many aren’t. My first IG-influenced purchase was a Leo Wright album that cost maybe $10.
If someone in a record store turns to me and says, “You should really check out this album, it’s fantastic!” I don’t ask, “What are your qualifications?” I listen to the damn album. Maybe I’ll like it, maybe I won’t. But I appreciate someone reaching out and sharing their passion.
@Paul — what you are doing in this thread is the very definition of grandstanding.
@Paul: I’m sure most posting on Instagram collect records simply to enjoy the music. And that for them (for us, I should say, as I’m one of them), sharing those records and their thoughts about them with others is part of that enjoyment. If that’s not your bag, fine, we all have our own ways of going about this hobby. But putting down others if their way doesn’t match yours strikes me as hilariously curmudgeonly. Above you mention the word ‘nauseating’ – I’d say that describes your stance in this matter very aptly.
To get back to the initial questions in this post though I would guess that:
1 – In 20 years I think we see that the value of jazz vinyl are in decline due to global economic recess caused by climate change.
2 – I think that social media (and Instagram in particular) are an important factor of increased demand and when the activity are goin down in these forum without moving to others I think it is a strong warning sign.
I would also like to encourage jazz enthusiasts with a lot of knowledge about the music and the historical background to participate more in the discussions! I can also get a bit tired of conclusions like “This album is pure fire” but I love when people with a deeper understanding steps in and gives a broader context. Especially people who experienced the scene as it emerged. For me that person often were Harald – the founder of record store Andra Jazz here in Stockholm. He was quite demanding “listen..listen to this. Wait be quite. Why do you like this..that is nothing special. Compare with this. Much better!” And so on… Mixed up with intimidating blind-folds 🙂 I sure would like to see more of these cats on forums like Insta 🙂
I so wish I’d met Harald Hult.