Undercurrent: DG or Not DG, That Is The Question
A couple of weeks ago Fred Cohen of the Jazz Record Center shared some new information about a much-discussed record on Jazz Collector: Kenny Drew, Undercurrent, Blue Note 4059. He sent me a note the other day stating that it raised some interesting issues about Blue Note original pressings and suggested that perhaps I give it a little more play rather than simply having it buried among a variety of comments. So, without further ado, here’s Fred:
For the benefit of Blue Note collectors and/or readers of the pressing guide, I would like to bring to their attention to the recent eBay sale of Kenny Drew “Undercurrent” on Blue Note 4059. The vinyl was in virtually new condition; the jacket showed minor wear (you can find the complete description as eBay #300517372359). What made this copy interesting is the lack of the deep groove on Side 2 and the “Review Copy” stamp on both the Side 2 label and the back slick. This is the first time I have seen a label-stamped review copy of Undercurrent and it raises the issue once again as to the definition of an “original” pressing: is it a record, regardless of any other consideration, that includes all the details – such as a deep groove – that collectors look for, or is it the first issue of that record? It is my impression that the presence of the “Review Copy” stamp on the label is a very strong indication that the “original” Undercurrent pressing had no deep groove.
Blue Note frequently stamped “Review Copy or “Audition Copy” on the jacket only, making it possible to substitute another copy of the same record. But the presence of the “Review Copy” stamp on the label would suggest
that it was the first pressing – sent to magazines and writers prior to its official release. The only exception to this might be in an instance where a record did not sell well and a second group of review copies was distributed. The fact that Kenny Drew never recorded another session as a leader for Blue Note as well as the general scarcity of “original” pressings of Undercurrent leads me to believe that the record’s poor reception in stores might possibly have encouraged Blue Note to try a second distribution of review copies. But that is speculation.
Historically, the presence of a “Review Copy” stamp on the label or cover has usually depressed the value of a Blue Note in the eyes of collectors. What is interesting in this latest sale is that the final bid of $1202.77 for a “Review Copy” was the second highest price ($1311) that Popsike shows for the June 2010 sale of a standard “original” pressing.
My point is that once the deep groove no longer appears consistently on both sides of Blue Note pressings, deciding what is and is not an “original” is difficult, if not impossible.
Cordially, Fred
difficult if not impossible:I agree.
deep groove seems to be an impossible barrier to get through,beginning with 4059.According to Fred here are deep groove statements:
deep groove on side 2 only:
4059,4096,4100,4107,4109,4115,4120,4149,4165,4181,4200,4214
deep groove on both sides:
4060,4063-4064,4067-4071,4074,4090,4097,4104,4106,4108,4123,4128-4129,4141,4146,4152,4157,4162,4164,4168,4170,4179,4185,4198,4201,
4207
deep groove on side 1 OR side 2:
4061,4078,4102,4117,4124,4156
deep groove on side 1 only:
4062,4076,4079,4086,4088,4110,4130-4132,4137,4139,4147,4155,4159,4163,4172,4175-4176,4180,4182-4183,4188,4190,4192,4195,4197
no deep groove:
4066,4072-4073,4075,4077,4080-4085,4087,4089,4091-4094,4098-4099,4101,4105,4111-4114,4118-4119,4121,4125-4127,4133,4136,4138,4140,4144-4145,4148,4150-4151,4153-4154,4158,4160-4161,4166-4167,4168,4171,4173-4174,4177-4178,4184,4186-4187,4189,4191,4193-4194,4196,4199,4202-4206,4208-4213,4215-on
Many BN exist in different combinations of DG:I’ve tried to match records of one kind with release dates:no way to a unique solution.
I think we’ll continue to get on without all the answers we expected.
I love Fred’s book:please consider a follow up for major jazz labels:Prestige,Riverside,Contemporary and so on.We’ll all be happy with this.
Hello
At one time I also collected Music Literature, company letter heads and I also had some rubber stamps 2 which said DJ one was approx 3/4 inch and the other was around 1/2 I also had one which said Review Copy and one which read Audition Copy.. If I wanted to I could have stamped all my records with these stampers.
Years ago in a record newspaper the following statement was written Please note as a jazz collector for years I did alot of research on first pressings. There are “deep groove” originals and “non deep groove originals”. The deep groove ring on any LP simply means that it was made in a press that had a specific configuration to locking in the stamper plates. This method of securing the plates in the press resulted in the ring in the label area that came to be known as the “deep groove”. In spite of what collectors seem to think, the ring has nothing to do with the grooves or the actual pressing what so ever. The stampers either flat or deep groove that were used in the press contain all the markings in the dead wax and the quality of the grooves that are pressed as well. Now Doctor Jazz has a start every number has to be tracked and marked.. And more than likely this task could be done as a project for Jazzcollector
Hi Nick,
Fred, the author of the post has done this in a book. You should check it out.
But you bring up something very important, how do we know the review copy stamp is the real deal?
Either way, to me this is a rare item in beautiful condition. I was bidding for it.
as clearly stated,I reported and cited Fred Cohen’s book.I think that Nick meant what Fred,myself and all in Jazz Collector are day by day encountering.An after 4058 BN in different shapes re deep groove.
BN 4060 exists double dg but also no dg.
BN 4061 exists dg either side 1 OR 2 but also no dg and never double sided dg (until now).
4076:dg side 1 only,but also no dg.
what is difficult to understand is the existance of most records in such a different dg shapes in order to know which is the real first pressing.
No different audio quality in dg/no dg but,you know,that collector inside wants,and pays for,the real first.
Hello
Doctorjazz,
The real question since nobody here was at the production of Blue Note records in the factory. Lets take BN 4061 – Exists Deep Groove either side 1 or 2 but also no deep groove, but than there is both sided deep groove.
Questions that need to be answered!
1)Are there matrix number and letter differances?
2)Are these numbers and letters hand itched or machine stamped?
3)What was the life of a stamper?
4)How many stampers were there made for first pressings?, I doubt if there was just one!
to me this is the key, what after running off say 50 or 100 records,the operator noticed there was something wrong and changed stampers, he also could have created the different situations BN4061 by trying different methods in locking in the stampers for a better result
4)They could all be first pressings?
right:this is the problem and I think Fred’s book can’t give all answers.
In my own opinion it’s a wonderful book but deep groove question is destinated to survive.
and all serious collectors will stay up at night with this doubt:original or not original ?
if you have the road to solve it,please start,we”ll follow you !
“To OCD or not to OCD,that is the question”…ya think?
Hello Got this off of the net for your information.
Plating
The plater coats each acetate with a thin layer of silver which is then electro-plated with nickel. When this plate is separated from the acetate, the metal that was facing the disk now has protruding ridges where the grooves were. This plate is called the father or master plate. The acetate disk usually gets destroyed in this process.
The father plate is oxidized, and plated again. The resulting plate, when separated from the father, becomes a metal duplicate of the acetate, with grooves again. This plate is called the mother plate and can be played on a turntable to check for errors in mastering or plating. Like acetates, mothers and fathers also come in one-sided pairs.
In a two step process, the father plate is converted into a stamper, and the mother is shelved for future use. In a three step process, the mother is oxidized and plated to make stamper plates. One father can produce 10 mothers, and one mother can produce 10 stampers. *One stamper can produce about 1000 vinyl records. Therefore, a two step process can produce a maximum of about 11,000 records before a remastering has to be done, and a three step process can produce up to about 100,000 vinyl records before remastering.
(The plating section was written almost 100% by Paul W. Brekus, master engineer at Aardvark Record Mastering in Denver, CO. Please see Aardvark for Paul’s excellent “The Record Making Process” summary.)
*Maybe the 1000 per stamper has improved since the Blue Notes were made and it could have been a lesser count for the Blue Notes
Here’s a quote sent to me from our good friend Larry Cohn back on February 2nd, 2011 regarding this very issue:
“Fred’s point is that for collectors when there is an older or original technology or version that would be preferable, even in the case of a “tie”. A perfect example is his sale last week on eBay of a copy of Undercurrent by Kenny Drew, BLP 4059. It is always an interesting title since it does not exist with the dg on both sides (apart from a Plastylite test pressing I guess, but I mean a real copy with actual Blue Note blue & white labels on it).
Fred of course lists the DG-one side as the original. But he is consistent –in his auction he did not call his copy an original because it had no dg at all, even though it had the Plastylite P stamped in the vinyl runoff. I looked at his copy in the store before he sent it off to the winner (who paid some weird amount like $1200) and it had “REVIEW COPY” stamped on the label on Side B, as well as on the back of the jacket.
In my research that “REVIEW COPY” stamp would be just the evidence I was looking for to prove that this copy of 4059 was indeed a first pressing original. It would support my theory that when the new technology was introduced it was applied to new releases, with the older repressings getting second class citizen (or more accurately random, anything will do) treatment. So I would argue that the NO DG with P copies of 4059 are the originals and the dg-1 side copies are random second pressings. Of course, the no P copies are reissues dating from 1966 or 1967, 5 or 6 years after the record was released.
But I see Fred’s point. For later titles, say Song for My Father or The Sidewinder, getting a dg copy is very, very satisfying from a collecting standpoint. It is preferable to the good old, garden variety modern NO DG with P copy. That is his point-of-view and he is honest enough to even go by it when he is selling something.
Larry”
*Thanks again for all your input on this one Larry ! Greatly appreciated as always.
…First pressing or not, I always prefer to have a DG variation myself. (At the end of the day, to each his own right.)
don-lucky, If you get a chance, would you ask Larry if he has ever seen Undercurrent with no DG and the P stamp. I personally don’t remember seeing one but I could easily be wrong.
You mean besides this stamped review copy being discussed?
Right, I haven’t seen any others with those marks. Although, for a long time I thought the side 2 DG was the original and tend to block other things out so it’s highly possible I just missed it.
my copy has no DG either side, has the ears and 47W63rd on each label. On the sleeve 43W61st. According to Larry this should be the original 1st pressing.
Seems to me that the review stamp could of been added whenever. If you go by DG being the rule for an original then the later marketing strategy could be the ticket. I (personally) believe that the DG only occurs because of certain stamper machines as I have tons of late 60s early 70s presses with DGs. BLUE NOTE lps as well as soul and rock titles on various labels. I always assumed that the DG presses is what everyone wants because of the tone of the stamping machine! They seem to be the ticket for what I call BLUE NOTE CLANG or SIZZLE(SCHIZZLE!) I do hear the clang/sizzle on New York USA lps here and there so we then bring up the RVG mastering concept ……… we could go on and on! BN rules for sure! I like your website Al!