Patterns, Icons and Socks
Here are some of the items in our eBay watch list, starting with Gil Melle, Patterns in Jazz, Blue Note 1517. This looked to be an original Lexington Avenue pressing in M- condition for the records and VG++ for the cover. The final price was $2,716. That is the highest price ever recorded for this album, according to Popsike. I own a Japanese pressing of this LP and, frankly, I’ve never listened to it, but somehow I get the sense that it is the label and not the music or the artists that makes this record so coveted among collectors. Maybe next time I get a chance, I’ll put it on the turntable. FYI, the highest price for any of the Melle Prestige records was $544 – and that wasn’t even the one with Kenny Dorham, Gil’s Guests. That one has had a top price of $381.
Here’s one I don’t recall seeing: Frank Foster, Wail Frank Wail, Prestige 7021. This is an early reissue of Hope Meets Foster, with the New York address Why Prestige did these early reissues is a mystery to me and probably to most of us out there, unless our friend Rudolf has a theory. This one is listed in G+ condition and the cover is listed as excellent. The start price is nearly $200 and there are no bidders.
Here’s an original (?) copy of one of the most iconic records in history: Billie Holiday, Strange Fruit, Commodore 526. This is a 78 RPM pressing with Fine and Mellow on the flip side. It is listed in E+ condition. The bidding is at about $225 with seven bidders and 17 bids.
One more: Miles Davis, Relaxin’, Prestige 7129. This was an original New York yellow label. The record and cover were listed in M- condition. The final price was $529, assuming the socks were not included?
I’d settle for one sock and part of a USB cable, personally.
Looks like someone doesn’t believe that well lit, properly cropped photos are important when selling lps.
AllMusic review of Patterns in Jazz:
“AllMusic Review by Stephen Thomas Erlewine
Like the modern art that stormed the art world in the ’50s, Patterns in Jazz is filled with bright, bold colors and identifiable patterns that camouflage how adventurous the work actually is. On the surface, the music is cool and laid-back, but close listening reveals the invention in Melle’s compositions and arrangements of the standards “Moonlight in Vermont” and “Long Ago and Far Away.” Part of the charm of Patterns in Jazz is the unusual instrumental balance of Melle’s bari sax, Eddie Bert’s trombone, Joe Cinderella’s guitar, and Oscar Pettiford’s bass. These low, throaty instruments sound surprisingly light and swinging. Compared to the two standards, Melle’s original compositions are a little short on melody, but they give the musicians room to improvise, resulting in some dynamic music. Ultimately, Patterns in Jazz is cerebral music that swings — it’s entertaining, but stimulating.” 4.5 stars
https://www.allmusic.com/album/patterns-in-jazz-mw0000463220
Mellé ’s last recording for Blue Note is a worthy farewell. Fully concur with allmusic. Al, give it a spin, you will be surprised. Dig O.P.
The first early Prestige album to be repackaged in the NY period was Concorde MJQ, 7005. Others would follow, 7013. I think the original cover designs were considered not hip enough, and to boost sales, a modern design by Reid Miles was put instead.
“Somehow I get the sense that it’s the label not the music” The jazz listeners of America rest their case. What say you the jurors ?
the Mellé is great. But at almost $3,000 for an original that’s quite a jump from the usual $1,000 or so…
I loved me those Gil Melle Blue Note 10” lps.
Especially 5020, the one with 2 cuts, ‘The Gears’ and ‘Sunset Concerto,’ sung by Ms. Monica Dell. An ethereal voice to my ears.
Lennib, Mellé ’s ten inchers on Blue Note are gems, all of them. But his only 12” on Blue Note is a culmination point. I guess thanks to O.P.
The three that would follow on Prestige are as impressive.
It seems that many years later he did an electronic album for Verve. I never saw or heard it.
How about Wayne Shorter’s Speak No Evil in VG+ for $2600 yesterday. Seems a bit high as well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/304024924752?hash=item46c94c3250:g:yOsAAOSwZLtgvlwW
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294215678574?hash=item44809efa6e:g:NLQAAOSwWdVgvlve
When i was a young boy (when NM records were NM) the doxa was that DG press from non DG Blue Note era were repress. There were furious battles about the exact cat number (4059 iirc ?) Playstylite changed the old DG stampers to new no DG stampers ; and why old DG stampers were dedicated to repress….So what about this Dolphy and Joe ?
I’m a Blue Note specialist. So any knowledgeable advice would be welcome.
Wayne Shorter’s Speak No Evil getting $2600 is just crazy. I had an original and I gave it to the bassist on the date, Ron Carter a few years ago as I am his official biographer but I never though that record would sell for that amount or I may have given him my blue label or even the CD.
Rudolf A.- Yes, those Blue Note 10” Gil Melle’s were special treasures when I had my Jazz record collection. Even bought a King Zephyr tenor and a white Runyon mouthpiece to emulate his equipment as shown on cover of BLP 5020. Nice horn, still have it tho records are long gone.
And agree re Prestige.
Verve lp ‘Tome VI’ was kinda cool, verging into electronics ala Stockhausen. He also did a lp soundtrack of ‘Andromeda Strain’ in a very cool folded cover all shiny silver hexagon shape, totally synthesizer sounds.
In a way I liked them both
The Shorter did not sell for $2600. The high bidder backed out claiming a mistake. The second highest bidder was legit but it was bid up by some yahoo with zero feedback. It was relisted at $1500 obo and sold soon after. Unfortunately popsike records the $2600 sale and messes everything up. I’m more then half of the “crazy” results on popsike were never actually completed or paid for.
Michel, If I understand it right from LondonjazzCollector and his talk with Larry the guy who used to press for Plastylite in the sixties The stamper itself is not DG or non DG. What makes the record pressing DG or not DG is determined by another part called a “die”. That die either has a DG ridge (wide) or a non DG ridge. The die keeps the stamper in place when pressing a record. These dies are interchangable with stampers and if the die brakes (and they apparently did) the die had to be replaced to keep on pressing. The machine operator just put in a new die that could be non DG or DG. That could be in the middle of a pressing run. If I understand it right from what Larry said the die used was not depending on new or old pressing equipment but they could use an old style DG die or a new style die in the same pressing machine. That would explain why it is quite common to have one sided DG or variants of that. Personally I don’t believe this talk about “old DG stamper used for repress” and “new pressing machines used for 1st runs” etc. I think it all makes sense if you think of the die as just an interchangable machine part – separated from stamper – that was used more or less arbitrary. I mean sure a alter pressing could be DG if an old style die was lying around and not broken yet. And that the old style DG dies eventually was replaced gradually with the more modern variant. What do you think?
Michel, If I understand it right from LondonjazzCollector and his talk with Larry the guy who used to press for Plastylite in the sixties The stamper itself is not DG or non DG. What makes the record pressing DG or not DG is determined by another part called a “die”. That die either has a DG ridge (wide) or a non DG ridge. The die keeps the stamper in place when pressing a record. These dies are interchangable with stampers and if the die brakes (and they apparently did) the die had to be replaced to keep on pressing. The machine operator just put in a new die that could be non DG or DG. That could be in the middle of a pressing run. If I understand it right from what Larry said the die used was not depending on new or old pressing equipment but they could use an old style DG die or a new style die in the same pressing machine. That would explain why it is quite common to have one sided DG or variants of that. Personally I don’t believe this talk about “old DG stamper used for repress” and “new pressing machines used for 1st runs” etc. I think it all makes sense if you think of the die as just an interchangable machine part – separated from stamper – that was used more or less arbitrary. I mean sure a alter pressing could be DG if an old style die was lying around and not broken yet. And that the old style DG dies eventually was replaced gradually with the more modern variant. What do you think?
I always wondered if multiple machines were used when pressing a run. That could account for the variations we see with records that have one sided DG.
Do we know whether first pressing runs were done on just a single machine? Seems like it would be more efficient to run multiple machines at the same time, but perhaps the pressing runs were small enough that only one set of stampers was made?
Justin, well no one knows for sure – but as you say normally I would guess that they were made with one machine and using the same stamper. I heard numbers like 600-1500 for a normal first run. However Horace and Jimmy Smith must have been more IMO. The best seller the Sidewinder must have been pressed a lot – but the first run was probably already pressed when Morgan got the hit.
@shaft : thank you for this relevant info. Learned many things. Never heard the “die” story before.
@Shaft: That’s some interesting background info. It’s not new, but the way you put it makes total sense. Unfortunately it also throws out 20 years of collectors’ research and what we believed to be the dominant working theory, because if true (and it seems likely), we’ll never be able to tell the difference between a first or later pressing run of a particular title by using the presence of a deep groove, or lack of, as the decisive identifier.
Maybe this means we can focus more energy on the music instead of the nerd stuff.
That’s crazy talk, DJ Pari. Everyone knows deep grooves make it sound better…
But of course!
Hi guys! thanks for your kind words. I find the subject interesting and try to learn as much as I can. The more I think of it and learn this info about the dies makes more sense. There is some more info at:
https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/record-labels-guide/labelography-2/blue-note-deep-groove/
Deep grooves are and will always be more connected to OG and older records and I guess collectors will most likely see it as a plus factor when collecting and everything before a certain point in 1961 was indeed deep groove. The flat edge is another subject that is interesting and also the info that all 10″ 5000-series from the 50’s are 1st pressings is also an interesting subject….
As long as it has the Van Gelder and Plastylite logo it’s good enough for me.
Clifford, yes certainly for me too 😉 I’m not a first pressing junkie. I have several Liberty/United era pressings that I like and play a lot. But I must admit that I find it interesting to understand the early BN releases. It also affects the pricing a lot to know what you are byinga nd paying for. I’ve made some mistakes for sure….
After 4059 it’s not clear if DG or not DG or a combination of the two is a 1st pressing. Fred Cohens confirms this. Either way, I still prefer a both sides DG copy, for example, if it says that in Cohens book for a specific title, instead of a non DG or one side DG. I try to follow his book for sure.
That said, up to this point, I’ve discovered a couple of errors on some titles, and Fred has confirmed this (one title differs on the DG question between the first edition of the book and the revised edition, and the cover address is not correct for another title) and that this will be fixed for a future edition.
I have warmed up somewhat to the possibility of not following the book regarding the DG or not dilemma for titles after BLP 4059 (as Cohen himself says; anything after 4059, DG or not, he considers original, as long as all other attributes that defines a 1st pressing is present) but it’s difficult. We’ll see how this goes…
Here’s Fred’s answer to me regarding my question if a specific title I was interested in had to be DG to be considered a 1st pressing:
“Starting with BLP 4059, released in May of 1961, pressing plants ordering replacement centers (see pp. 76-79 of my book) received them with no deep groove. They probably didn’t notice. It can only be assumed that the change in center design was a move to more economical pressings that required less (thinner) vinyl.
Here is where speculation comes into play: if you are working in a pressing plant you will likely take a center off the shelf or box at random and secure the stamper on the press. Your job is to press records, not check to see what the centers look like. Maybe you will press 300 copies this week and next week you will press 300 more (of the same record). Who knows which center was used for which pressing – deep-groove or non deep-groove?
The answer to your question is this: we do not know which pressings came off the press first. But if, as a collector, your interest is in having a record with all the details that define a first pressing, then the deep-groove pressing is the one for you. As for me, anything after 4059 is “original” as long as all other details are correct.
I hope that provides clarity.
Fred”
Cheers!
Over $5000 for a New York pressing of “cool struttin”. To think I thought I was a bit crazy spending $500 on the exact same pressing in exact same archival condition a few years back.
Thanks Fredrik! I can only concurr. Nice to read Fred’s comments. Just to clarify for readers when Freda says “Centers” (to hold the stampers) this piece is also called a “Die” as per my comment in this thread.
As for the 4059. The only copy with Review Copy stamped to label and cover was the non-DG version. Fred takes this as an evidence of this non-DG version being a 1st press.
IMO the most likely scenario for 4059 is that the pressing run started out with one DG – Die and one non-DG die. The in the middle of the pressing run the side 2 DG-Die broke and was replaced with a non-DG die. Of course it could be the other way around ie that the run started with two non-DG dies.
Anyway when the pressed records came in those cardboard boxes to the warehouse in NY where they were put together with the covers (this was not done at the Plastylite plant) . An employee just grabbed a handful of records from the record boxes and the covers from another box I guess. What that person grabbed was maybe the first or lasts pressed LPs in that run – who knows. Depends on the logistics and how many boxes of 4059 there were. Then took the records to the office and stamped them “Review Copy” and let them out for distribution to radio stations, critics etc.
PS If you want to see the picture of the warehouse with Lee Morgans sitting in front look at londonjazzcollector
$5250 is indeed a lot of money for a second pressing of Cool Struttin.
Theyve been “overpaying” for 2 decades now. What has changed?