Record Record Prices for the Record
I should get that $12,600 copy of Blue Train on the record, pardon the pun: John Coltrane, Blue Train, Blue Note 1577. This was an original pressing with the New York 23 label on Side One and the West 63rd Street label on Side Two. It was sold by our friends at the Jazz Record Center in New York. The record looked to be in M- condition. There were nine bidders, 24 bids and in the final hour or so the bidding went from $4,300 to the final price of $12,600. Wow. I think this is the highest price I’ve ever seen for a jazz record. Does anyone recall anything that sold for a higher price. Whilst perusing the Jazz Record Center complete listings, I came upon several other high-ticket items that will be of interest to our Jazz Collector community, including:
Art Pepper, Modern Art, Intro 606. This looked to be an original pressing in M- condition, the cleanest copy I’ve seen online. This one had 43 bids and wound up selling for $3,926.
Eric Dolphy, Outward Bound, New Jazz 8236. This was an original deep-groove purple label pressing, also in M- condition for the record and the cover. The final price was $1,079.99.
Charlie Parker With Strings, Clef 675. This was an original pressing, also in M- condition. Final price was $1,525.
The Magnificent Charlie Parker, Clef 646. This was an original in M- condition. Price: $1,525.
Charlie Parker, Alternate Masters Volume 1, Dial 904. Another original in M- condition, Price: $787.
I guess reports of the demise of the collectible jazz vinyl record market have been greatly exaggerated.
Yeah, some serious wallet damage was done in those auctions. I was bowled over.
Especially by the Bird stuff on Clef, right? Happy to see it, because Bird should never be out of style, but you don’t usually see his stuff with Granz going for those kinds of dollars, do you?
I think Fred (and JRC) is a unicorn.
What surprises me about the price achieved by Blue Train at the JRC auction is that:
1. This was a mass-produced item. It is not actually rare like a lacquer or certain Paramount 78s, where only one copy is known to exist.
2. For the “highest price I’ve ever seen for a jazz record” one would expect the cover to look as new, certainly not with the toning and staining that blemish the back slick of this copy.
3. At a starting price of $3000 one would expect some written assurance that the LP plays wonderfully, particularly when the cover is not NM.
Growing up with antiques my whole life one is taught that the three most important factors are condition, condition, and condition. The fact that the cover of this LP is clearly not in perfect condition tells me that high-end buyers are more concerned about sound than visual appearance. I would trust the good folks at the JRC when they say the LP has been “perhaps played once” and that this is presumably the determining factor in its unprecedented price. It is maybe then a cause to celebrate that people are buying these records to play (at least occasionally) rather than purely as an investment to seal in plastic like a baseball card.
The cover illustrations by “Bruce Mitchell” on the Bird Dial LP’s are neat. Anyone know anything about the artist?
Aloha folks, that was amazing to see that Jazz Record Center’s Blue Train bring that amount in! I remember seeing one just like it but I think the NY 23 label was on Side 2. It also had stamped on the record label and back of cover I believe “For Promotion” in blue ink. The copy I saw was in very good+ condition for the vinyl and very good condition for the cover. So, not as pristine as Cohen’s listing but very nice and rare with the promotion stamp on it. Wonder what that would go for today! Mahalo!
Yeah both cool and scary to see this price for Blue Train. I think the 3 main factors for the achieved price is:
1. Disc in NM condition.
2. NY23 label on one side that is very very rare.
3. JazzRecord center is the seller.
I don’t think this Disc sounds any different than the regular W63rd non inc and R pressing.
I have a VG copy of the W63rd and apart from a problem area with scratches it really sounds very good. I paid about $150 for that copy some years ago.
The mass produced factor is not completely relevant for two reasons :
Blue Note first press were not mass produced in the 50’s. Runs were small (lets forget the debate about number). How many of the original copies have survived in NM condition ? Probably very few.
Many mass produced item are nowadays highly collectible. How many Fender Stratocaster were produced in the “pre CBS” era ? Tens of thousand, there are still plenty on the market, and the demand is still very very high.
12000 $ for a record, the real deal is a large amount of money. But record collecting market is still in its enfancy compared to books, toys or base ball cards.
These recent auctions from Jazz Record Centre have been a bit scary. I put in what I thought was a more than reasonable bid for a copy of Walt Dickerson’s To My Queen. The final selling price blew my bid out of the water. I’ve got my fingers crossed that this is a blip and not a growing trend towards collecting original pressings becoming unaffordable.
The JRC has built a reputation over the 40+ years of delivering pristine condition records. I recently over-paid for the Miles Davis ‘Steamin…’ just to win ONE record as I was constantly getting outbidded. I plan on keeping their hype sticker as provenance because, as Ken Micallef quipped, these records are seen as works of art.
The funny thing about the Blue Train auction is the continuing debate as to whether the record is actually a 1st pressing. I’m of the opinion that the pressing knits are obsessed with buying the earliest pressings as a status symbol, and it has nothing to do with the audio quality of the record. Unfortunately, even I have fallen prey to that trap.
I have news for everyone: this will not be the last five-figure jazz record to sell at auction.
I had a chance to buy ” Liberace plays Monk” about 10 years ago for $10,000.00 and passed it up ! Today the record can’t be found …
LondonJazzCollecter has an excellent discussion of Blue Trane labels and covers. Based on his research this may not be the earliest cover variation. I will lay awake tonight pondering..
Where’s Bob Duj when we need him?
Aloha Paul, I’m curious is the NY23 label variation first on Side 2? I thought I read it was the 1st, then later came out the Side 1 NY23 variation. Does this also correspond with the covers? I love the story or backstory on when and how these were issued/released. Take care now. Mahalo!
@Paul – You are certainly not alone in your suspicions on that Blue Trane cover. Have a look at our chat under that last Jazz Collector post ($1,000 JAZZ VINYL (AND NOT) We had a great discussion on the subject. IMHO it appears to be the second variation. According to Fred Cohen’s infamous guide (p.106/107 in the first edition), the earliest version of BLP 1577 originally had a dull greenish-blue photo and grey “Blue Train” lettering on the front, while the later versions have a blue photo and white “Blue Train” lettering. Just looking at my copy, you can barely make out John’s hair in the earlier variation.
Aloha don-lucky, question: the “For Promotion” Blue Train NY23 copy I saw had the cover you are speaking of and the NY23 label was on Side 2. Does that mean it’s the earliest version of the record as this JRC copy has possibly a 2nd cover and the NY23 on Side 1. Again for me, I just like the history of a record and for some reason this one isn’t “cut and dry.” Take care now. Mahalo!
I was more than a little intrigued by the suspicion of a later cover for the record sale. I read the Londonjazzcollector side again and compared to my own copy of w63rd no R or INC that is considered 2nd pressing. My cover is early with a green tint and a glorious print Fuller head and clear Trane behind. You can hardly see Tranes hair – it is there but not as clear as the cover photo in JRC’s auction. And yes the JRC cover looks a bit later in that regard. Interesting.
It is however for me very hard to understand what really happened at the Plastylite factory and the Printer Factory and at the Blue Note warehouse. The LP’s and covers were not put together at Plastylite but at the warehouse where the two products met. They were sleeved with the inner sleeve at Plastylite for protection I guess. That is also the reason that the inner sleeve is more indicative that the oiter for determing when a record was pressed.
What puzzles me is the older NY23 label. There are occurences on both side1 and side 2 but never on both sides?
The NY23 must have been ordered from the printer before in time the more common W63rd label was ordered since the BN adress changed to the latter. But why was the NY23 only applied on either side 1 or 2? Both label variations must have been present at the early pressing batches. I guess we will never know for sure. On explanation could be that BN ordered the NY23 labels first and the very short thereafter ordered more labels i.e. the W63rd labels. This must have been done before the 1st pressing I guess. Otherwise we would have a bunch of NY23 on both sides – right?
So when the 1st pressing was done there were both label variations at the Plastylite factory. A guess could be that BN first had intended a 5-600 peace run with the NY23 label but then for some reason said “nah let’s make it 2000 – it’s Coltrane for Pete’s sake”? And then ordered new w6rd (without NY23) adress labels to meet the 2000 and run the pressing machine for the whole 2000 run. So for some reason they did not run with the NY23 on both sides. Maybe they were sitting at the printers and when the additional label order came they decided to ship them togeteher? Cost reason or that the Ny23s were already sitting at Plastylite – waiting for the rest of the labels before they went to work? It’s all speculation of course. But my guess is that the 1st pressing run with either label variation are made at the 1st pressing run. The labels just got mixed up when pressing. The NY23 side 1 was on the top of the label pile and NY23 Side 2 was just at the bottom. So when pressing the 2000 during a couple of days I think the first 600 had one variation of NY23 on side 1 and then they ran 800 with W63rd only both sides and then lastly 600 more with NY23 on side 2.
As for the promotion stamp it would have been applied at the office where someone at the warehoud just opened a box and fetched a bunch of records (20?) from the Blue train Card boxes that had been married to the sleeves. If they just happened to open one in the middle they would get the W63rd both sides labels. Or it could also have been preferred to send out records with the correct adress for promotion (and not the old Ny23 on one side).
Regarding the promotion stamp I don’t think that a worker at plastylite just took the first 20 records pressed in the run and stamped them with “For Promotion” and sent them to BN office. Not plausible since the covers were not even there. Generally the promotion could just as well be from the last discs pressed or married with covers.
But as I said it is just speculation and regarding the record price for this JRC auction it is surely the Ny23 label and condition/seller that commands the price.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/305440184550
Hank Mobley 1560 sold for $10,699.
And on March 17, a record on Verve sold for $8,400!!
(Spoiler…it was the Velvet Underground).
Anders, I have got the Blue Train version identical to yours. I am very happy to have it and enjoy it tremendously. I really don’t care about NY23. Of course, should I consider selling it, it’s a different story.
JRC put a new list of Coltranes on EBay yesterday. Both Prestige and Impulse.
Be interesting to follow bidding on these . Also 10 Miles Davis lp’s on both Columbia and Prestige.
I’ll stick with my MM 33 Test Pressing gifted to me by Ron Rambach.
from what I can tell (which isn’t too much), it looks like the spate of bidders on the Coltrane and the Mobley are different users. So it apparently is a different batch of fiscally loose record hounds on each auction.
I didn’t know the Mobley 1560 was that high value. i always thought it was 1568, that gets those prices.
Kyle, this is indeed the earliest first pressing. There are other variations with split labels. Several BN titles from the late 50’s had different addresses on the side 1 and 2 labels, which suggests that various dies were assembled to produce the labels. Apparently the side 1 address die was updated before the side 2 die.
Regarding promo labels, they should not be used as evidence for a first pressing. There are well-documented examples of second pressings with promo labels.
I meant to say there are no other variations with split labels.
Aloha Paul,
thank you for that explanation. I asked because aren’t there 3 BN’s like this Coltrane, split labels NY23 in the 1570’s?
In regard to the Blue Train, the copy I saw had the earliest cover whereby the front is not as “bright” as later ones, the words in grey and Coltrane’s hair not so clear/visible on the front. On the back Fuller looks really nice, not the weird blotchy pics later on. This copy had the NY23 on side 2 and “For Promotion” I believe both sides and back of cover. It also had the first BN inside plain white paper sleeve. I had never seen one before where it seemed that everything pointed to a very early first pressing.
BTW I have wondered if the split NY23/NYC record labels were a joke/prank. Only happened on a few albums. I know they didn’t like to waste supplies already produced. I just pondered if they had Side 2 and Side 1 NY23 ready to go, why not use them up first, then start the next batch. It’s like a hybrid thing, maybe bridging the gap from NY23 period to the new NYC standard. Always interesting with BN! Mahalo!
Just throwing in my 2 cents mixed with a splatter of speculation.
There has been speculation Kyle, that there may have been NY23 labels on both sides (statistically it makes sense as you said) but that in the past 60+ years; the few that existed have been destroyed/discarded, hidden away in a collection, etc. As we have never seen one come up for auction, my theory can’t be proven and I can only speak of the 2 NY 23 variations I have seen. I am of the belief that the 1957 initial run must’ve contained at least three variations. NY23 on side 1, NY23 on side 2, W 63rd both sides (and possible NY23 both sides). The sheer rarity of NY23 gives it that special allure. My other issue with W63rd/no inc labels on both sides is plenty of these are from the 2nd, 3rd runs etc over the following 1+ year. As such anyone with W63rd both sides may have something from any of the early runs but not necessarily a first. Finding a west 63rd NM copy is not difficult in my opinion with a little patience. A NY23 in NM condition is so special for this reason. FYI, side 2 NY23 is statistically more rare than side 1 NY23 (based on auction history), most of the copies sold at auction (including this particular one above) have been side 1. Some collectors/rarity hunters, appreciate this point also and NY23 side 2 may be more valuable to some.
What a few people had mentioned above, is what I think is the key, the sleeve (blue note, correct me if I’m wrong, had a single printing plant for its sleeves and they were done in batches). There is strong evidence (londonjazzcollector etc) that the first sleeve is the green one Kyle mentions with grey tone for Coltrane. This copy does not have that but the buyer may not be aware or may not care of this detail. My copy and several others who have this, have alluded to that green cover and its correlation with NY23 labels and other likely 1st west 63rd both sides. I am of the belief that this first green cover mixed with the NY23 should lead to the greatest value for a first press blue train.
I am not totally surprised by the sale. eBay bidding is not like Sotheby’s etc. Most people snipe a max bid at the end. There is a lot is psychological insecurity and ego when it comes to auctions. So strong are such emotions among some people, they’d rather overpay something (hoping it won’t happen and that the second bidder will be reasonable). Every once in a while the two max bidders both go over the top and we get sales like the Leapin and Lopin for 7k in the past, Mobley 1568 (sold in UK and given the value of the £ at the time, value was 11k+ US$ – though I’ve heard this order was not fulfilled by sale but was sorted by trade later). As we all know, that doesn’t not mean that is the value of such record, merely a benchmark that may or may not be reproduced. What does surprise me a little about the NY23 copy sold by JRC is that it’s potentially not the earliest green sleeve and secondly that stain on the back (which clearly looks like a liquid stain). For a top price, I would not want something that had had something spilled on it. But to each their own and the top bidders didn’t care or maybe they do and they just got caught up in the moment. Either way, as Clifford had said, money clearly isn’t their biggest worry.
I have to say I was more shocked by some of the other sales, some prestige titles that are very commonly found going 2-3 times their typical value. Is this FOMO and people just can’t wait? Or maybe they deeply value the provenance of an item from JRC. I will happily sell my NM copy of some of those miles Davis prestige titles that I know I can find again for >1000$ if any one wants them.
It does break my heart that these artists were underpaid and treated as second class citizens and now these items are treated as investment chips. But this is nothing new; society continues to do this over centuries. Capitalism at its finest! Adam Smith would be proud.
Sorry for rambling, but interesting discussion! Most of what I have written is just speculation from years of collecting. I know as little as everyone else so would love to hear more thoughts.
Paul, just a clarification. The die used at pressing has nothing to do with the label. The die is metal ring that holds the stamper in place (around the die). The old dies had the deep grove raised and the newer ones without that raised ridge an thus produced a non DG pressing.
Sorry if my last post was very long and maybe hard to read.
I just think that the workers at plastylite used up the labels in whichever order they could gra. The thing that was imprtant was of course that it was the correct label and not the adress. i mean Blue Train Side 1 – check. Blue Train side 2 – check! Lets press a bunch of Blue Trains.
Just throwing in my 2 cents mixed with a splatter of speculation.
There has been speculation Kyle, that there may have been NY23 labels on both sides (statistically it makes sense as you said) but that in the past 60 years; however, the few that existed have been destroyed/discarded, hidden away in a collection, etc. As we have never seen one come up for auction, my theory can’t be proven and I can only speak of the 2 NY 23 variations I have seen. I am of the belief that the 1957 initial run must’ve contained at least three variations. NY23 on side 1, NY23 on side 2, W 63rd both sides (and possible NY23 both sides). The sheer rarity of NY23 gives it that special allure. My other issue with W63rd, no inc labels on both sides is plenty of these are from the 2nd, 3rd runs etc over the following 1+ year. As such anyone with W63rd both sides may have something from any of the early runs but not necessarily first. A NY23 in NM condition is special for this reason. FYI, side 2 NY23 is statistically more rare than side 1 NY23 (based on auction history), most of the copies sold at auction (including this particular one above) have been side 1. Some collectors/rarity hunters, appreciate this point also.
What a few people had mentioned above, is what I think is the key, the sleeve (blue note, correct me if I’m wrong, had a single printing plant for its sleeves and they were done in batches. There is strong evidence (londonjazzcollector etc) that the first sleeve is the green one Kyle mentions with grey tone for Coltrane. This copy does not have that but the buyer may not be aware or may not care of this detail. My copy and several others who have this, have alluded to that green cover and its correlation with NY23 labels and other likely 1st west 63rd both sides. I am of the belief that this first cover mixed with the NY23 should lead to the greatest value for a first press blue train.
I am not totally surprised by the sale. eBay bidding is not like Sotheby’s etc. Most people snipe a max bid at the end. There is a lot is psychological insecurity and ego when it comes to auctions. So strong are such emotions among some people, they’d rather overpay something (hoping it won’t happen and that the second bidder will be reasonable). Every once in a while the two max bidders both go over the top and we get sales like the Leapin and Lopin for 7k in the past, Mobley 1568 (sold in UK and given the value of the £ at the time, value was 11k+ US$ – though I’ve heard this order was not fulfilled by sale but was sorted by trade later). As we all know, that doesn’t not mean that is the value of such record, merely a benchmark that may or may not be reproduced. What does surprise me a little about the NY23 copy sold by JRC is that it’s potentially not the earliest green sleeve and secondly that again on the back (which clearly looks like a water stain and not age toning etc). I would not want something that had had something spilled on it. But to each their own and the top bidders didn’t care or maybe they do and they just got caught up in the moment. Either way, as Clifford had said, money clearly isn’t their biggest worry.
I have to say I was more shocked by some of the other sales, some prestige titles that are very commonly found going 2-3 times their typical value. Is this FOMO and people just can’t wait? Or maybe they deeply value the provenance of an item from JRC. I will happily sell my NM copy of some of those miles Davis prestige titles that I know I can find again for >1000$ if any one wants them.
It does break my heart that these artists were underpaid and treated as second class citizens and now these items are treated as investment chips. But this is nothing new; society continues to do this over centuries. Capitalism at its finest! Adam Smith would be proud.
Sorry for rambling, but interesting discussion! Most of what I have written is just speculation from years of collecting. I know as little as everyone else so would love to hear more thoughts.
Aloha Anders, thank you for thank info! I still wonder if it was intentional or a joke as 3 albums in that BN 1570’s series had the split labels. We may never know but it makes for a fun discussion! I have an earlier Horace Silver BN in the 1500 series that has two Side 2 labels, lol ?! Someone had a tough day at the plant I guess! Mahalo!
Kyle, No joke I guess. The operator of the presses just used up the labels he had in hand I guess. 2 same labels on one disc is obviously a mistake. What happened sometime is that an operator pressed a couple of discs to himself – often in colored vinyl. There are a few vintage colored vinyl Blue Notes if I can remeber it right 😉
That is a maybe “joke”.
Aloha Anders, again thank you! By the way, I made a slight mistake about the split NY23 labels, I said there were 3 albums in the BN 1570’s series whereby their first/initial release had the split combo but it was actually only 2, Lee Morgan 1575 and Coltrane’s 1577. Mobley’s 1568 was the 3rd album. I find the Sonny Clark 1576 interesting because the first, initial release in 1958 had both labels with the NY23. But most likely an early second pressing in 1959 has the NY23/W 63 split combo.
Yes, I’ve heard about those colored Blue Notes! Have wondered how good they sound? Take care now. Mahalo!
I asked Fred about the cover of the Coltrane before the auction ended, and he told me that it was not the first pressing, but that it was NOT a switched cover as the owner got it when it came out, and that it was just one of those BN mysteries. He also had a Hank Mobley 1550 in the same auction I think that did not have the flat edge but otherwise looked the same as the first pressing. A mystery indeed!