Ringing in the New Year With Blue Note (Of Course)
Here are a few more recent Blue Note auctions of interest:
Horace Silver, Blowing the Blues Away, Blue Note 4017. This was an original pressing with the ear, deep grooves, et al. It was in M- condition for both the record and the cover and it sold for $165.50. This is a more common pressing than some of the other Blue Notes and has traditionally, not gotten a top price. Earlier this week we saw another copy sell for more than $200. I think what we’re seeing is that the overall market for Blue Notes is just rising, so even though this one is now $100 or $200 or more, it is still not as costly to purchase as other Blue Notes of the same period and ilk. It’s also a fantastic record, isn’t it? This was a record I heard all the time growing up: My father was a huge Horace Silver fan and Sister Sadie was a particular favorite.
Ike Quebec, It Might as Well be Spring, Blue Note 4105. This was an original New York USA pressing with the ear, Van Gelder stamp, etc. It was in M- condition for the record and the cover. It sold for $305.
This is an interesting one: Jackie McLean, Jackie’s Bag, Blue Note 4051. This was listed in VG for the vinyl and VG+ for the cover but the top bid was only $82.65. I was curious but then I looked at the pictures in the listing. If you look at the back cover you can see that there’s no way this cover is in VG+ condition. So, if the seller thinks a cover like that is VG+, what must the vinyl look like, right? Just a few days earlier another copy of Jackie’s Bag with VG vinyl and a VG++ cover sold for $202.50, which is more in line with what we would expect these days.
new year,old cheats.try this any day:ebay-blue note-newly listed,auction or buy it now.
you”ll be lucky to find 1% of well described items,less than 1% with clear photos and complete description.
mistakes,omissions,idiocy and insanity are the rule.
and I don’t discuss prices for buy it now.
it’s a real hard way to be sure of what we buy.
ok,we can ask a question:but even here you’re not sure to receive a correct answer,when you receive it.
maybe it’s all this that limits my buyin’ on line.
when you have a record in your hands,it’s you vs the owner.you know what you’re fighting for.
but these were old days:we can never capture ’em again.
know what I mean ?
The copy of BN 4017 sold has the registred trademark sign and the label says “BLUE NOTE RECORDS INC”. According to the information, London Calling provides on Flickr, this title was “recorded in 1959, first pressing actually carried no “r” or “inc” pre-dating the registration of the Blue Note trademark. Copies are to be found recorded on Popsike”. But I couldn´t find any description of BN 4017 without the “r” / “INC” on Popsike. Actually I´ve never seen a copy of that title without the “INC” and the registred trademark. Does the first pressing of that title really have no “INC” and no registred trademark sign ?
dottorjazz-I agree that sometimes insanity rules the day,esp. in regard to “buy it now” prices(and the opening bids from some others are beyond op-ti-mis-tic!) I do think that little from the “old days” compares to what one has access to today-a mere click of a mouse brings me together with others eager to sell..and bid! It’s a far better deal than my going into Dayton’s,having “big Jay” pull an lp off a shelf that I could never afford. At least now,my sales can offset the cost of those long-sought gems. And Al-is there a hipper version of “Sister Sadie” than Andy Bey’s 60’s take on Prestige? Looped with the original,it’s a “funky preacher” outing that showcases much of what pulled me into jazz in the first place-“and she’s never been the same since Alphonso put her down”!
you mean the good old days when dealers had sellers at their mercy cause they were the only game in town. no thanks, and thanks to EBAY I don’t have to go to Infinity Records anymore. thank God!
my ideal should be Ebayin’ 24 hrs on my Mac AND exploring dusty shops ’round the world.
now I’m in Miami,no record shops but a nice sun;next month I’ll be in New Orleans where the shops I like most still exist:eg Jim Russell and the new Euclid location.I’ll dig that.
On another note (pun intended): the Jackie’s Bag photos also feature a snapshot of the inner sleeve. But that inner sleeve doesn’t say anything when it comes to Blue Note, ’cause I do own a few original Beatles pressings and even a mint copy of Maria Callas sings Verdi and although we’re dealing with Parlophone and Columbia on the labels, it’s all EMI material and they all feature that same inner sleeve. As far as I know that typical inner sleeve is exclusive to EMI, so why the seller pictured it, is unclear to me. Correct me if I’m wrong 😉
Mattyman, you are 100% right, that is a 60’s UK EMI inner sleeve.
Thanks for your confirmation, Aaron! I just knew that I was right. Of course it’s a known fact that nowadays EMI owns Blue Note, but still: depicting that inner sleeve for the Jackie’s Bag auction makes no sense at all 😉
This is really interesting. I’ve been getting more and more into vinyl and this website has been really helpful in learning what to look for with different pressings, labels etc….I’ve been trying to find good vinyl copies of things I’ve had on CD.
Being sort of new to this, I thought it was weird how expensive some stuff was going on Ebay in the last couple weeks. I figured that the mint condition of some of the albums was part of it, but reading around here has confirmed that there may be more to it. I’ll stay tuned.
Bought my first original pressing Blue Note–Jimmy Smith “Rockin the Boat” a while back…..London Calling, round up some of those unwanted Jimmy Smith and Stanley Turrentine records for me, I’m a big fan of those albums! Thanks for all the info guys.
Tim there is a copy of 4030 Crazy Baby (NY labels rather than 47W63rd) in the rack at Revival, Berwick Street, which to my certain knowledge has been there at least three months, at £30 – around $50, with no takers. A copy of 4073 Midnight Special has been on the wall at Notting Hill for at least as long, and that’s priced around the same.
Same story with Turrentine, common to see low price originals sit for months on the shelves.
In contrast in the same store a later pressing of Cool Struttin’ I think 47W63rd went on the wall at £300 ($460)and sold to a walk-in same day.
If you are a fan of both Smith and Turrentine you are fortunate indeed. Forget ebay,you can build a collection on almost small change. The only overhead is a trip to London.
Nice! Maybe I’ll get over there sometime.
Take “Crazy Baby” as an example: That came out in 1960, so an original pressing would be 47W63rd right? If it’s New York USA label, it’s not a Liberty or reissue, but a second pressing? How does that sort of thing effect value? Thanks.
Spot on the money Tim, NY label would be a subsequent pressing for 4030, “second” in the generic sense as I have no idea how many further pressing runs were ordered in the six years of the Blue Note Records Inc regime following.Just not the first.
I have a good few 47W63rds as this would have been but also many NY label seconds. They all sound pretty good though 47W63rds generally sound better.
Thing is, you are “swimming against the tide” of market sentiment a little. If something is not thought desirable by market-makers (those watching the $1500 starter on Sonny Clark tonight) then a first press of an undesirable is not worth a lot more than its second press. Neither will command any market premium.
On the other hand if you crave a first press of Sonny’s Crib – http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170586524945&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
join the watchlist and drool.
(Forgive the plug? I updated my Field Guide to BN First Pressings v4.1 (Jazz Collector know-how) today, updated to correct some pre-Liberty indicators which weren’t right – poor scholarship on my part. If anyone want this just email to andrewsouthlondon (at) hotmail (dot) co (dot) uk .Its free, I’m a fan. I just had a request from a prominent US ebay seller for a copy, which could be good news for better information for buyers)
Tim, it needs the NY label and the “P” to not be a liberty or re-issue.
An original would be 47W63rd, Double Sided DG.
LC, is that a first press? The originals from that era weren’t sold with Shrink and that also doesn’t look like a Deep Groove, but a very deep ridge. Coupled with the poor description I’m a bit skeptical.
Dam, timing is everything in life isn’t it? I’m told apparently Fred Cohen’s Guide to BN First Pressings has finally been released, cost $45.
I bow to authority, I’ve been trying to fill a gap that seems now to have been filled.
Still happy to send a spreadsheet if anyone wants, warts and all. The point being that if you have the skills you can leech stuff out of a spreadsheet and match it with your own and other data, unlike a paper book.
LC, I’ve got it and I’m writing a review to put on Jazz Collector. It’s what everyone has been looking for.
4030:first pressing identified by:
47 west 63rd nyc on both labels
inc+® on both labels
deep groove,ear and rvg on both sides
43 west 61st nyc on back cover
inc on back cover
and that isn’t all
there are two different colors in the lettering on front cover:more commonly blue-green,sometimes yellow
which is the first one ?
if most of ebay sellers should indicate all these details for >90% of their blue notes they wouldn’t sell anything to a knowledged collector.unfortunately they do,and at high prices.
anyone out there with a good answer ?
Thanks a lot. This is helping clear it up for me. I’m seeing a lot of Ebay stuff where the seller mentions a RVG or Van Gelder stamp and/or an the “p”, implying an original issue, when it’s actually a repress, though pre-liberty.
Is it fair to say that albums that fall into that category are high quality pressings and somewhat collectible, but not as much as a confirmed 1st pressing? I guess it would depend on the title.
So 4030 with NY label and the “p” isn’t a Liberty or a reissue, but also isn’t original pressing. So it’s a good version and collectible, but not as much as an original pressing–sound right? What’s the best thing to call that–“second pressing”?
Tim, this discussion gets at a major point of contention among collectors. How I use the terms are this
First Pressing- has all identifying marks of the first pressing.
Original- a pre liberty pressing without one or more of the identifiers of a first.
This pretty much jibes with what most people use. Many sellers are rather shameless and you have to investigate it yourself. Ask them questions. If they don’t give you the info you need then you are taking a gamble.
gotcha. thanks a lot
Is there a difference in value in a “First Pressing” or “Original Pressing” as described?
yessssssssss,a lot !
As I described them there is a difference. It’s just hard to quantify exactly because many times people will bid up a non first thinking it’s a first. I don’t know what others would estimate but a crude estimate would be that a first would go anywhere from double to 10x the price of a non first. You can usually get a good deal on Originals if you are patient.
Ok. Last example, I promise. I’m curious about a record mentioned on this site already. 4164 Smith/Turrentine—beautiful NM, but almost $700!! From what I’m learning, it seems this is an “original”, but not 1st pressing because it has DG on one side. Check it out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&nma=true&rt=nc&item=270682421370
I had read this earlier in the 12 tips:
4. Starting with 4060 ALL “first” pressings have NO deep groove! If you find a copy of any number AFTER 4059 that has a deep groove in one or both sides, it’s a SECOND pressing–the new equipment was ALWAYS used for the first run! This has NO EFFECT on value however!
And if I might add my two cents to the Sonny’s Crib that London Calling found, a few comments above: look closely at the label of the photo where the record is laid down on the table. That’s an “R” right there. You may have to look closely, but that is an “R”. The only real close up of the label is of side one and of course that one has no “R”. And I’m also sure that THAT is not a deep groove. Indeed it looks like a ‘ridge’ as Mike described it. Last but not least the shrink wrap takes away all doubt. If there’s one thing that I’ve learned here, then it’s that pressings from that time didn’t come in shrink plastic. Whoever is going to fork out the 1500 bucks for that Sonny’s Crib… Good luck to him/her.
4164,not first.
700,no comment
first or second or third:it does have effect on me,and I think on all serious collectors.
It’s not a first but according to Fred Cohens new book that is not because it has a one sided Deep Groove. This first pressing(in Mono) is one of the few exceptions to the rule Tim stated that after 4059 all “first” pressings should have no deep groove. There are a few first pressings between 4059 and Liberty which have a one sided or double sided deep groove. Also, the stereo pressing of 4164(84164) should have a DG on side 1 or side 2(but never both).
Thanks so much for the help. I’m trying to make educated purchases and know what I’m looking at when I see something “out in the wild”.
Tim, I am also a relatively newcomer to the jazz scene as I collect jazz records only since 2 years. Collecting BN is a challenge as they mixed and changed quite a lot and they used quite often leftover old labels on newer pressings – and vice versa as I learned the other day: One of my last entries is Monks Genius of Modern Music (BN 1510), the vinyl itself has a flat edge so it should be a “first” – but the label is NY! It seems that somewhere in the warehouse some non-labelds vinyls have been found after some years and they fixed new labels on them! To find a real “first” at a reasonable price is difficult. But imo all “original” monos have a great sound. I paid 40 USD for the Monk in spotless shape.
Welcome to “Jazz School”, Blue Note Collecting Masterclass.
I have that Monk, well Vol2, Mono 47W63 DG one side,around $40 too, and its a reminder that first or not first, in my view, its sonically a poor recording.
Though RVG was a master of almost everything, I have heard many opine he was not good on recording piano. Whether that’s true or just too early recording equipment, its not an uplifting experience from an audiophile point of view. Monk is Monk, but to my ear it has a dull, compressed, boxed-in sound.
I look for “early pressings” because generally they sound better than later ones. But as always with Blue Note, there are exceptions…
By analogy, some rare expensive fine wines are best collected rather than drunk, as truth is, they sometimes don’t taste very good.
Because I’m short of time right now, just a short answer: please have in mind, that both Monks were mostly recorded in the forties and released on 10″es. They transferred the material to 12″ later on and RVG remastered the music to get something better out of the sound. The original recording, I believe, was not his. You should check out the tracks, that stem from the fifties on theLP’s, because they sound better. As a matter of fact it has to do with the technical possibilities, not so much with RVG!
@Mattyman: You’re absolutely right with “Sonny’s Crib”. One addition: No mentioning of the Ear.
@Katharsis: yes, the ear, of course! 😉 They don’t mention that either. But then again; the rest of the photos fully show that 1500 bucks for that Sonny is madness. I wonder if the seller even knows what the “ear” stands for and that it’s in fact a pretzel shaped squiggle that represents the “P” from Plastylite! As you can see, being on Jazzcollector is valuable, ’cause I learned all that right here!
Point well made Katharsis. “RVG is innocent”.
On Sonny’s Crib, may be its just me but I find high opening values very off putting, and you often see them end with no bidder.
Its for buyers to decide what its worth, not the seller.
Yes indeed. You could handle that nicely with a reserve price. But on the other hand some people might think “uh, that must be worth a lot”. And it’s still funny sometimes to see people sell records, with absolutely no idea about the real value of their records.
“And it’s still funny sometimes to see people sell records, with absolutely no idea about the real value of their records.”
Real value..to whom?(Ah,there’s the rub..)
With real value I mean the price range, a pressing like this would usually sell; e.g. not $1500 for a Liberty-pressing. Let’s say, something like the common sense in the jazz sellers guild.
Just a flag – enjoyable time today bidding for some non-holy grail Blue Notes today. No last-second snipes shooting prices into the stratosphere. Solid sensible prices, well within the Popsike median, looks like the Happy Holiday collectors are back behind their desks earning rather than spending.
There is a lesson here. Avoid crowds.
Interestingly, no sign yet of any feedback on Roverd-90’s profile from the “mystery buyer(s)” who apparently blew near $10k on 27th December paying way over the odds for lots of his records.I’m watching.
Agreed–those were high prices!
I’m interested in these exceptions to the rule, as in 4164. It looked like that buyer had overpaid for an “original”, but may have ended up with a “1st” after all. It seems that the NM factor is pretty important as well.
Tim, I would say that the NM factor(if it’s trusted) more than doubles the value.
Hi,
First time poster… I never understood the deal with roverd’s insane prices.. he sells records I wouldn’t consider paying more than $30 for, sometimes for close to $1k.
If this has been covered many many times pardon me, but again.. first time poster.
Andy,welcome to the fray! To put those prices in perspective,think of what you might do if you had money to burn-now BURN it! If you found yourself “buying” things for prices you never imagined before,then you’ve taken a walk in some of those buyer’s shoes. After all,once you can afford what you want-what’s stopping you? For the rest of us,though,there’s always “a dollar and a dream”…