Sanity and Insanity, Redux
Oh, now I see why there was so much discussion on my previous post about Lee Morgan, City Lights, Blue Note 1575. It sold for $1,525. That’s the highest price we’ve seen for this record in the Jazz Collector Price Guide. I had estimated the value of my copy at $1,000. Perhaps I need to make an adjustment.
This one also ended up in the stratosphere: Cliff Jordan, Cliff Craft, Blue Note 1582. This was an original West 63rd Street pressing in M- condition for the record and VG+ for the cover. It sold for $1,510.
I’ve been thinking a little bit about some of the judgments we (or I) have been making about some of the prices being paid for non-original pressings or for prices that seem to defy normal expectations. People can pay whatever they want for these records and, in the end, who’s to say that they won’t get tremendous enjoyment and satisfaction out of a United Artists Jutta Hipp Blue Note or an original Kind of Blue with a ringwear-pocked cover. And maybe even these records will turn out to be a good investment years from now and we’ll all look back and regret not loading up on later Blue Note pressings.
I guess what I react to is the lack of knowledge that is at the core of some of these purchases and the fact that buyers can be so taken in by either false claims or exaggerations. Anyone doing a modicum of research before purchasing some of these records would realize that they could probably get the same record for a much lower price by being patient on eBay and buying from a seller whose listings are more accurate and reasonable and less hyperbolic. But, in the end, it’s a buyer making a choice about how he wants to spend his money, so I guess if buyers tend to spend more than the going rate, that’s their business. And perhaps, if enough do so, they will raise the going rate for some of these records, which doesn’t do me any harm as a collector. It just makes my collection more valuable in the end. From my end, I’ll keep writing about these “insane” purchases because it’s fun and interesting and makes us all feel a lot smarter about ourselves. 🙂
I don’t get particularly exercised about “lack of knowledge”. Frankly, that is the least interesting aspect of these auctions.
Of far greater interest are the amounts people are willing to pay for vintage records that they wish to own — irrespective of what hardened collectors may think of their provenance or value…
The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that these auctions say nothing about the “worth” of records or their likely resale or investment value years from now. The only thing they illustrate is wealth, a drive for ownership, and a preference for not waiting…
I am amazed by what people will pay without respect to condition.
I can sorta see $1500 for a pristine copy of Cliff Craft, but not with a crunched corner and library sticker residue all over the labels – even if it plays well.
When Atomic Records gets beauties – like that copy of Overseas – they’re really nice, but I’ve been advised by the shop not to go below EX+ for the vinyl as it’ll likely be in less-than-stellar condition.
Maybe people just don’t care and file LPs without listening to them.
When I sell records I wish I could get 75 percent of what Atomic Records gets.
Mike: I’m at the point of letting well known dealers seller my stuff. Sure they take a cut, but they typically sell for higher prices and I don’t have to go through the hassle of shipping.
Clifford: It’s amazing what Atomic gets. I believe that’s the second Overseas they’ve had for sale in a month (I assume it’s not a returned copy as there is positive feedback for the first sale).
I’ll second that about condition. However, for me, how the records plays is most important. A small blemish on the cover is fine but when I hear surface noise from an LP it annoys me.
I guess the buyers trust Atomic’s grading. That reputation takes time to build up.
Bu the really stupid thing is that feedback from unhappy buyers is rarely shown on eBay. I know from own experience that when I get an overgraded LP and contact the buyer for a return or partially money back I don’t give any feedback at all if the seller agrees to “set things right”. Sometimes it is like pulling out teeth with the sellers and your only leverage is the threat of giving bad feedback. Very annoying indeed.
It is a self correcting system but a bit of a shame since you cannot be sure if that 100% feedback reflects the seller’s buyer experience.
Go figure.
Another thing I’ve reflected on is that my belief is that as soon as Record Collecting is going towards investment purposes things can start to go wrong. We have seen this in the art market etc. A bubble builds up and somewhere along the line suddenly something happens that scares the investors off. Then previous buyers get in the fix with depreciated values on their high-prices items.
I thin that the values of second andlater pressing will continue to go up as long as (and only as long as) the prices for 1st pressing go up. Since a lot of desired items have gone up so far in prices that leaves more buyers no choice but to grab those later pressing which will in the end raise the prices.
If the market for first pressings go down the same people will go for the first pressings again – “Ceteris paribus”. (all other factors unchanged)
I think the major factor is what buyers believe the records would be worth in the future … If you examine popsike or various issues of Goldmine jazz record price guides you will see a general trend for 12″ original pressings value to increase, wheras 10″ systematically decrease. Additionally Mint/Near Mint copies will become very difficult to find (note that most of offerred UA pressings are in a very good condition compared to 50’/60′ pressings).
A major factor is investment? We’ll all be dead by the time that buyer makes money if any on that $371 Jutta Hipp UA. The Japanese Pressing is far superior to my ears but to each his/her own.
I will actually leave a positive feedback if the seller sends a full refund with no hassle so that Flanagan could have been a return.
I mean if you are selling 1000’s of records there is no way you can playgrade them all plus Id be nervous to even spin a record of that value if I was going to resell.
For even the top sellers on eBay, they are, unfortunately, in the end, dealers primarily, not buyers, with a point of view distorted toward their profit and away from you getting a good deal. I have witnessed what I would call “a failure to tell the whole truth” to some capacity with just about every single record dealer I have ever come across, ebay or not.
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IMO, the whole point of ebay–and I cannot stress enough how strongly I feel about this–is for sellers to find either wealthy or impulsive, undereducated buyers to purchase their records for top dollar, which is usually beyond reason for the average collector with knowledge and sensibility. eBay has turned collectible hobbies into a fight between these two camps, which unfortunately leaves out “the good guys”, if you will. So I don’t think record dealers who put all their good stuff on eBay have a very “power to the people” attitude about their trade. But in a way, they really don’t have any choice, as many of them make a living doing what they do and have a right to seek the greatest profit, so you really can’t blame them for that. I have a friend who’s a pro dealer and I never buy records from him because we both unspeakably know he can get way more on eBay than the “reasonable” amount I would be willing to pay him.
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But it sucks that the nature of being a collectible dealer more or less means you have to play the “fail to tell the whole truth” game by default. Before eBay, I feel like dealers were more “power to the people”: that they were more likely to price their records reasonably with then intention to move merchandise. Cuz who knew how long it would take a sucker or a rich guy to come along to buy the record at a ridiculous price?
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For someone who is sensible with high standards but lacking wealth, this hobby does indeed take a tremendous amount of patience.
@ Migkiller1971 you are right, Jutta Hipp on UA is not the best example 🙂
Anyway, most of the UA pressings in NM condition continuously fetch >50$ prices and I see them in 100$ bin very soon…
There is one major reason why I “Try” to collect old blue notes and that is FIDELITY. Period! If i want to hear just music than i’ll just buy a cheap cd. There is only one person who brings the chops and that is Rudy Van Gelder. If it doesn’t have a RVG or Vangelder than its a fugazi. Do these people that pay a ridiculous amount of money for UA pressing realize that its not a vangelder? Actually, noone knows who redid the UA. By the way, I paid $1.99 plus $3.98 shipping for Curtis fuller the opener UA Mono, mint. If anyone wants to give me $300+ for it so i can upgrade to an original than I’M GAME!!!!!
I agree with you Rich. Even on ebayUK alone you see the same sellers churning blue notes and other labels and getting good money for VG and very rarely 1st pressings.I tracked Paul Chambers Bass on Top which i would really like.£553.00. I am just a working guy, no chance
Correction £530.00 Could of got afterall!
I don’t buy records for “investment” purposes or any other purpose other than the pure enjoyment I get out of listening to these wonderful discs. The day my records are sold is the day I die, and my wife reaps the benefits. Along with my collection of 15,000 baseball autographs and my stereo equipment, my wife may just be the “Merry Widow”.
A neighbor some decades back explained her investment in Beanie Babies. Through a combination of savvy marketing, limited (or over) production, along with price guides and speculation, a frenzy of investors, short-term profits, and long-term bust, was created. Shall we talk bitcoins, an investment in something that does not exist apart from an algorithm? Investment is the stuff of numbers, which I respect. But I find it difficult to reconcile this term among those who love the actual objects: the divine fidelity that emerges from the air pushed by the speakers; the tactile cardboard &lengthy liner notes. Only collect what you love, I’ve heard say, and I agree. Neither the plush cuddle of the B.baby nor the meteoric rise/fall of e-currency can make me feel alive… or overjoyed to be human the way that a clean, rich reproduction of Trane’s sax, Miles’s horn, or Ron Carter’s bass can. Should the number associated with these number rise, that is good… but damn the numbers, let the music rise above the economic din of Jazzcollector.com!
First edition books (long a solid collecting area, & continuously increasing in value)seem to me to be a more apt comparison that bitcoins or beanie babies. However I remain puzzled by the willingness to pay high prices for non-original pressings, which cannot possibly be of lasting value. If you love the music (as I do) and can’t afford the Firsts, I say go with OJC, etc (as long as they remain cheap) or buy the CD. But collect the Firsts when you can get them within your means.
Daryl, nicely said!
I recently read an article about the future of music reproduction. Let’s just say that there won’t be many people listening to vinyl or playing music through “systems” in about 20-25 years. Now would be as good as any time to sell if you are looking at your collection as an investment.
Upstate bill- do you have a link to the article?
Upstate Bill-
Those writing this kind of stuff are the same people who predicted the paperless office, flying cars and moon colonies by the year 2000!
Original vinyl is not only music, it is much more than that! It is a physical piece of history, a timeless witness to its era, a cultural artifact that represents a snapshot of the artistic evolution of human kind!
Its value will not diminish just because it’s an old music recording format!
People like us who buy and enjoy vinyl are but a small minority, but they are on the increase, and the sales statistics are a proof of this. Many people are also discovering and rediscovering the joy of vinyl after being in the digital wilderness, and they are even willing to pay big money to own a first pressing of an album.
Well-mastered original Vinyl is as close as you can get to the studio sound heard by the musicians, the sound engineers and the producers when they first recorded the music. Any later reissues are generally inferior, including the different digital formats that are just a mere representation of the analogue sound-waves, they are like admiring a photo of a bottle of fine wine instead of drinking it!
Vinyl has been dead about 3 times in my lifetime, yet, here it is again, “vinyl makes a comeback”.
It never went away.
I have two lovely older turntables and one from 1984. I don’t care what the aesthetic is, these tables will always be popular and a marvel in sound reproduction.
Vinylzone,
I’m suspect that Upstate Bill was referring to an article in the new Stereophile (March 2014). The article is titled “Audio Engineering: The Next 40 Years.”
It’s thought provoking. But I must say I think the author oversells his case a bit. I sure hope he’s wrong about where music reproduction and listening is headed. But even if he’s right, I’m not sure it follows that rare records like the ones discussed on this site will no longer be valued (financially as well as aesthetically). What probably does follow is that it will be a lot harder to get cartridges and turntable parts (e.g., belts)!
That should have been ‘I suspect’. Sheesh.
Yes, that was article. It’s in the March edition of ‘Stereophile.’I am a huge vinyl collector, so I sure hope the value of vinyl doesn’t diminish in the future. However, one has to wonder what will happen to these prices once baby boomers stop collecting. The generations after do not have the same amount of disposable income. Nor do they have the same original connection with vinyl, not having grown up with LP’s. I’m sure there will be plenty of vinyl collectors in 25 years. I just don’t think the records themselves will have the same relative value as they do now.