Shades of Tommy Flanagan Overseas
When I began collecting jazz vinyl as a serious (obsessive?) endeavor, sometime in the late 1970s or early 1980s, the record that was identified as the “rarest” or “most collectible” was Tommy Flanagan Overseas. There was no internet in those days and I had never even seen a copy of this record for years, and didn’t hold a copy in my hand until maybe 20 years later, when it was part of a collection that I did not buy. I never owned an original until the Bruce W. West collection back in 2013, so it was a long wait of more than 30 years for me. I’ve always kept an eye on this record on eBay because of its early mythological aura, at least as I experienced it. Over the years I’ve seen as this record has moved into the $3,000 price range on occasion, which is certainly quite a high price, but the aura of this record as the height of jazz collectibility has been eclipsed by other records, particularly Blue Notes, and most specifically Hank Mobley, Blue Note 1568. Yet Tommy Flanagan Overseas is still high up on the list of valuable and highly sought-after jazz collectibles. I mention all this as a prelude to this listing on eBay now: Tommy Flanagan Overseas, Prestige 7134. This auction for this copy
closes tomorrow and it promises to set a new record for this record, certainly eclipsing the $4,000 barrier for the first time. The record and cover are both listed in M- condition, although, to be fair, the pictures accompanying the listing do not look like an M- cover, so that’s a red flag, and least in my humble opinion. Nevertheless, the bidding is at $3,950, which already surpasses the highest price as recorded by Popsike, which was $3,938. With 16 bidders and a lot of activity to date, I would expect even more action at the end of the auction. We’ll keep an eye and keep you posted on the results.
Speaking of records I’ve waited a long time to acquire, there is Freddie Fredd, Shades of Redd, Blue Note 4045. I’ve waited all of this time to acquire an original pressing of this record, still to no avail. Meanwhile, the price has gone through the proverbial roof. When I first started monitoring this record on eBay, I probably could have purchased a nice copy for something in the $400 range, then it lingered in the $700 or $800 range for awhile. Now, we are seeing copies routinely sell for more than $1,000 and up into the $1,500 range. I have no doubt this record will eventually enter the $2,000 bin, as have so many other Blue Notes of this era. Anyway, I thought I had a chance to get a copy recently.
A reader of Jazz Collector had acquired a collection and was asking for advice. He had purchased a bunch of highly collectible records and was looking to sell them on eBay. Among these records was an original pressing of Shades of Redd. I said I’d be willing to trade and he was totally amenable. In the end, I didn’t pull the trigger. I didn’t want to take a record out of my collection and, the only duplicate I had to offer was a mint pressing of Sonny Rollins Saxophone Colossus. As much as I wanted Shades of Redd, the disparity in value was just too much. When I reached out to the owner of the record, he made the logical point that I could easily sell Saxophone Colossus, pay top dollar for Shades of Redd on eBay, and still have money left over. Logical, yes, but not within my sensibilities as a collector to pay $1,500 for Shades of Redd. I’d much rather continue the hunt and, when I do want to listen to the record, put on one of my two Japanese pressings, one in my studio apartment in New York, the other in my home in The Berkshires. Anyway, the guy with the original Shades of Redd took some of my advice and has begun selling records on eBay, including Donald Byrd, Byrd in Flight, Blue Note 4048. This was an original pressing listed in M- condition for both the record and the cover. It sold for $1,136.
Al, I’d be interested in buying your extra Collossus if you ever decide to sell. 🙂
What the hell just happened with the price of the Flanagan? My goodness.
To me, if I sold a record to pay for a record, even if the cost of the other record was $1500, it would be a trade. Hell, if you unclenched your spare Colossus and got $3G, you could “spend” the extra on something just as nice as the Redd.
Also, wonder if that $6,250 Flanagan will be paid for…
Serious question: How long do you reckon these prices will continue to rise? If the “50 year rule” is real, I suppose a market correction would be coming sooner rather than later. I often wonder about my purchases, worrying that 1500/4000 Blue Notes will go the way of Dixieland records…
Dear ,
I’ve sold this copies yeserday vis Eayer. (I’ m Lee in Rep of Korea)
Korean Tradition(Gayo not K-pop) copy “Bang eu Kyung” in 1971 pressed is sold as $11,000 in the VG condition
I do not regard the record not as money but as boy.(or Music to the back bone)
Very Sad, But no choice thinking of my age!!
I’ve dicontinued to gether the records now for my burden(over 10,500 copies)
I’m so sorry for poor English for My mother tongue.
The Collector here in Korea never say the record not as value but as music.
I’ve several Blp 1568, these overseas, and Lee Morgan 123, J mcklinn Tradition and so on.(over nm)
I hope to think their artistry and the Mood then and never value like me
(How empty am I if not music but Money!!!!)
All the best,
Lee
I’m with you clifford
to the jazzopath: that may well happen, but a few things, such as far greater connectivity of the collecting world, make me doubt it will be as chaotic. also, if the value goes down, then great. i can buy more!
I wanna ask Mr. Lee
Why always does some same bidders(who never ever got the bid) appear on your auction?
The Jazzopath: I’ve always thought that the 50 year window theory is based on popular culture not historical significance. Swing and Dixieland were both considered popular mainstream music which hard bop never was. To me, now whenever I hear someone play hard bop it still sounds relevant whereas swing/dixieland sounds nostalgic.
Also, collectable hard bop 1st pressings are for the most part 33 1/3 and the golden era of swing/dixieland recordings are 78’s. The lack of 78 speed on modern turntables further reduces casual collecting for newbies.
To Redright:
I’ve said not to see the record as value but to do as music if you are real record player or collector(althogh lower level).
Against me , The records were burdens, money and the last things left me because I’d thought If I’d died, who would know these records in my library? My son& daughther,wife? No They would see them as huge Junk.. I’d gethered 11,000 for 45 years, How many i listen the rest of hour, day,years left me?
That’s All!!
Also, Is Jazz your great Culture which take place in New Orleans by France immigrants,as I think .
Why do you see your player like twightlight Gems as money, arn’t proud of them?
I’ve see these site “Jazz colleror” as fisrt .
To my surprise, here is pseudo-ebay affecting collector’s playground.
Maybe You think or eger to buy these vinyl as $950 if you can like me , Dont You?
As a result, the peoples who see the records(esp Jazz) as money are not Collectors but Fraud like me.
Real Music lovers(or Record players) musnt say music,its records not as money but Gems..
“Why always does some same bidders(who never ever got the bid) appear on your auction?”
Would you ask them directly, Why?
I’m Carzy too because many people like you think I’m worse fraud than a years ago.
Collector is only Music lover not business man.
Furthmore,You must be proud of Jazz lover or Jazz record players over the world al least!!!!
Regards
Lee
Ps: I’m so sorry to every one.
I’ll never enter ,see these lillte-Ebay again( There are not site like this Here in Korea, but Only ardent discuss clubs)
Dear Mr.RRH,
I want you to search for the bidders on Ebay.
I regret that Americans know that they have a wise and broad mind. very Sad!!
Can you distinguish between the Junk records and Gems of Jazz , classical?
Can you distinqish between 1st press and fake of Jazz, Classical ?
Have you ever bought Andre Levy’s J.S Bach Cello solo(Lumen) as $17,000?
Have you ever bought Hank mobley BLP1568(NYC/ NY23) as $7,800?
Have you ever bought Annlies Shumidt de Neveu J.s Bach Cello(Duretet thomson) as $17,000?
Have you ever bought Art pepper Morden art(intro) as over $4,000?
I wonder why you thinks that you are selfish and that others are innocent.
I wish It will be as wise as a great nation really.
I wish You be Music lovers but fraud seller like me.
Regards
PS; Pls The owner of this Blog dont clear out my foolish comment.
Have you ever bought J, Gautier’s Faure trio as $6,800?…
Yes the question really is if the interest and demand for Be-Bop will continue down the generations? All of us of course knows that this is the best music in the world ;.) but do the new generations agree? My children that are 18 and 16 think it sucks basically – and even if they liked the music would they prefer to listen to it on vinyl or some streaming alternative?
As for now sure it is a specialised music but there are enough collectors to keep the market happy and even going up some. There does not have to be that many crazy guys to keep the market going. I would guess that only a couple of hundred high rollers would be enough. We do not have to look further that ourselves…
Lots of good points. I think the market is really 3 or so sub-markets. At the high-end ($500+), you have people buying for investment purposes. No one is paying $6K to hear Tommy Flanagan in original vinyl; a guy who was cut by Coltrane after he couldn’t make it on the Giant Steps record. It is all about supply and demand and I agree that this is where all it takes is a small set of deep-pocketed guys to run up prices like you see in the art market. No idea if these folks will move on to some other investment/interest in the future. We may never see Overseas go for this price again. In the middle ($50-$500) is where I would guess most of the readers here are. Love the music, play their records, watch eBay in the hopes of getting a score or something off their wish list. Started collecting several years ago and are conflicted about the state of the prices in the market. Their collection is worth more but they increasingly can’t afford to add to it. We are starting to see run-ups in records like BN white label Libertys because people are priced out of the higher end. To me, as long as this segment stays relatively stable, I am good. The lower end of the market is the guy walking into their local record store and spending $25 on Ella record just to have a cool collectible on vinyl. 10 years ago this was a $5 record. This is where I would see the most fickleness/trendiness in the market. These buyers could vanish tomorrow and the record store owners would have to get back to pricing reality. I don’t blame them as they gotta make rent. I just personally wouldn’t start stockpiling a bunch of common jazz in the hopes that you would triple your investment in 3 years.
To Mr.Lee
I did not say you are a fraud
I love music itself, the price depends on the market
I only collect the rare records which I love the music first
Of course I have been got the bid of BLP1568, no big thing for me
My point is? using cappers is disgraceful
I am on Ebay every day to find or bid my favorite records,
I know some sellers have capper in their auction
Obviously theirs could not appear on your auction
and the same to you
also yours never bid for other rare records (cause they only serve for you)
for example, there are two 1568(side2,ny23) recently on ebay
But your guys who have almost appeared in your every auction(Music style unlimited) ,
are not interested in the other one at all
(I couldn’t put the pictures here, but I believe everyone can check it on the website)
I mean not only you on Ebay,
This phenomenon exists in every kind of auction market,right?
Thanks for your ardent reply
Good luck
My only concern was whether the stratospheric bidders were actually paying for the items won; I’m glad that in your case, Lee, they mostly have.
And I’m happy with my Japanese Metronome reissue of Overseas. Of course it’s also a lot cheaper — a LOT — to buy these cuts in their original format, which was on Danish 7″ EPs. They each have a very nice cover image of Mr. Flanagan, but of course not the green and black design that Prestige used.
I am not fanatical about Tommy Flanagan though I do like his playing, and Overseas is a superb piano trio session where everything came together exceptionally well. So I understand why people value the record highly from a musical as well as an aesthetic standpoint.
Spending over $500 on a record is definitely a luxury; in the several cases where I have done so, it has always been that the record was not reissued and I felt like the price was right/fair and the condition was archival quality (not to mention being particularly excited about the musical content). It is not a regular occurrence, thankfully for my bank account (which is far from flush most days).
Clifford; It was the Swedish not Danish Metronome label which released these 3 EP’s. And they are not cheap by any means, but still, cheaper than Overseas. I have them all but I don’t dig the EP format as much as I used to.
I have Overseas as well but didn’t pay anywhere near as much as this copy sold for. I got quite a bargain as it turned out.
Ah, thanks for the correction!
To RRH,
OH yes, You are just an occupied man on Ebay like a gambler.
BTW,Are you able to buy that BLP 1568 at present?
If BLP 1568 is your main target, You must bet all you have whether there is capper or not on bid.
(Because I’ve bought all Records on Ebay since 1999,as My Freinds here in Korea did so)
Dont just mention the guess unfamiliar if you are US men orginally. I feel compassion on you like faint hearted gambler . Wish to check the cappers , let me know who they are and wish to sell your collected records on Ebay yourself just once.
No,I’m just Fraud as you’ve pointed . Who are You then!!!
Regards
Lovin’ me that Mr. Lee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwjTUoiXgrE
To Mr.Clifford
I’ve received $6285(including freight charge) next day after bidding.
But Two US bidder didnot pay $2125, $1085 for winning Records over 40days
(Pls,Follow up my previous bid. I opened the case open But Ebay never resolve this case ,request Ebay fee 10% of records’ bidded price. It will draw out of my account)
Is it Fair!!!!!
And Mr.Clifford,
I will list Jackie Mclean “New tradition(M-/M-)” pressed by Adrib on comming Bid.
I wish you to buy this record surely.(or tell me the records You want to see via Ebay)
Thank you for your deep concern!!
Is this the real ‘Lee”. Color me skeptical.
I forgot my “?”
Mr Lee – do you have a link to your auctions?
RedRightHand – Although there are some ebay sellers who seem to have friends bidding up their auctions, other bidders are doing this to benifit themselves not the seller.
Around 2005 there was a string of French ebay bidders who were bidding up high end 12’s and never paid for them. The high prices were then posted to popsike and collectorsfrenzy establishing a new top price even though no money exchanged hands. Ebay collectors/sellers sharing their similar experiences on blogs were able to successfully block these false bidders but I’m sure this still continues.
This is the reason why I keep questioning keca222’s auctions as he either has numerous identical copies of all these holy grails or he’s selling the same record that was unpaid for or returned.
Dear Mr. Shaft,
No. I dont have a link to my auctions
I’ve been buyer till 2015 but I saw huge amount of Collected Record-vinyl 11,000 copies, cd 2500cpoies(Almost not available) and they began to be my burden suddenly.
So I decided to sell all classical ,the duplicate Jazz etc in 2017.
That’s all.
When I was buyer, I never regarded record as Money but only real Music and trill.
I dont understand why these members regards that as value..
Nobody here in Korea do that!!!! Also My best , Great American Freind ( Met him on ebay)only think so.
I do honor him really 🙂
Regards
Mr Lee!
Many thanks for your answer and explanation. I also maybe love music and Vinyl too much 😉 not so many vinyl as you but more CD’s. I can agree that it is almost too much talk about money here but alas money is needed to build a fine collection. And if the people here are like me not rich but not poor there is always the struggle to buy the best for the price but I think in the end that collectors here just love jazz too.
To whom it may concern ,ENOUGH ALREADY ! Let’s get back to jazz. Thanks
Like I said back on April 25,
I’m lovin’ me that Mr. Lee.
l’d give him a whole column for his jive,
If it were only up to me.
Hey, everyone. Al here. Sorry I’ve been offline so long. I have a lot to catch up on but no time. Haven’t even read all of the comments here, although it seems at first glance there’s some weird stuff going on. Plus I’ve seen a new Blue Note documentary and have other stuff, but going on the road tonight for a few days. Hope to be back later this week.
Another Blue Note documentary would be aptly entitled “Blue Note : the politically correct success rewrited story everyone has to believe to feel better about artistic creation process and human being in general”
Al – Casually mentioning you’ve seen a new Blue Note documentary is a hell of a teaser. At least give us a thumbs up or down…..
The film is called Blue Note Records: Beyond the Notes. The trailer is online.
Blue Note: The Norah Jones Story
Shades of Redd is a very cool album. Very hard to find clean. Based on today’s prices for other comparable Blue Notes, a NM first press is worth every penny of 2K, IMO.
I’m happy to see Overseas or BLP1568 go for big dollars, even if they aren’t the coolest or the greatest records.
I have always loved the artist concept for the cover. I know this has been a jazz trail for sometime despite many aficionados feeling it’s a fairly average session. Could the general record buying public be placing ultra premiums on the cover art.
Personally I enjoy the recording a lot (love the cover too) and I was very excited to acquire an original for $7.99 from a store a couple years ago. Haven’t run into a deal like that sense.