Soundin’ Off On Some Jazz Vinyl
I had a couple of hours to kill the other night and I spent them both on eBay, just perusing through the listings and looking for interesting stuff. I pretty much filled my watch list. Here are some of the items that caught my eye:
Dizzy Reece, Soundin’ Off, Blue Note 4033. This one looked quite promising with original shrink wrap. The record was in Ex or Ex+ condition and the cover VG+. But on close inspection, there were no deep grooves and no mention of an ear in the deadwax, so that probably wasn’t there either. Still, the record sold for $166.50. Would you think this was a Liberty issue with old labels, or would it be pre-Liberty? Is there any real way of knowing? It so happens there is a second copy of Soundin’ Off that looks to be an original pressing, ears and all. This one is in VG+ condition for the record and the cover and is currently priced at about $120 with well more than two days left on the auction.
This listing struck me because it seems pretty clear that the seller did not use a picture of the actual record cover and showed no pictures at all of the labels or vinyl:
The Unique Thelonious Monk, Riverside 209. The seller describes it as an original white label pressing with the deep grooves, but it would certainly be in both his and any potential buyer’s interest to actually see what he is selling. The start price for this is in the $100 range and there is a single bid, which means it will sell. Whether it is a legitimate buyer, who knows.
Here’s a listing of two records that seem to have nothing in common other than the seller probably bought them together and didn’t want to list them separately on eBay: Sonny Rollins, The Sound of Sonny, Riverside 241, and Jimmy Smith, Groovin/ at Small’s Paradise, Blue Note 1585. Both records look to be original pressings in nice condition. The bidding for the pair starts at $225. So far there are no takers. I bet if the Rollins record were listed alone, it would have a bid buy now.
I love this one: Sonny Clark, Cool Struttin’, Blue Note 1588. This is an original pressing. The record is in G condition. To me, G means the record is pretty trashed. The cover is VG. Why do I love it? Because, in the day, you would be happy to get anything at all for a trashed record. Who would want to even put it on a turntable. Nowadays, there are 11 bids on this record, the price is in the $150 and, ta da, the seller actually has a reserve price on it and the bidding hasn’t even reached the reserve.
Only on eBay kids, only on eBay.
I believe the Jimmy Smith might be considered by some as a second pressing because of the presence of the ‘R’ on the label.
“struttin'” is a rare one indeed. some people will be happy to have any copy, even if it sounds like sandpaper. i don’t understand these people.
but then again, i suppose we all have odd habits. here we are collecting old vinyl discs (and paying lots of money for them!) because the specific pattern scratched into them has noise we like!
but at least mine all sound good. :p
Have you guys listened to that sound clip from the 1568 copy that’s reached over 3000 dollars right now? The seller is listing it as having a playgrade of VG++/Almost new and the sound is supposed to be very nice and clean. If you listen to that sound clip you can clearly hear the wear and surface noise which makes this a VG copy. Unbelievable paying over 3000 dollars, even if it’s 1568 with the NY23.
Fredrik: I respectfully disagree. Play grades must also take into account the age and scarcity of the disc, in my opinion. That’s no excuse for grading a bad record highly, but upon listening to the entire recording, I heard only two moments which would leave me grumpy: a run-in click (no big deal) and a click in what I believe is track two during a quiet part. There is minimal surface noise to be heard on my speakers. Similarly, the rarity of this record, to me, justifies the grading and the price. I think we all know this is not really going to be a play copy anyhow. What copy of 1568 would be? Every time you listen you risk throwing away 3500+ on a stray needle or a handling slip-up. I would find a liberty or a scorpio, inferior though they may be, or better yet, enjoy my FLAC rips from the good ol’ internet, and keep the original safely secured on my shelf.
But alas, a month’s salary for a record? Not anytime soon, for me.
Have to agree with GtF – surface noise only in quiet passages (slightly) and between grooves would IMHO easily qualify it for VG++
Yeah, I would wager that a hit on a Keith Monk’s or VPI would improve the sound on that 1568 markedly. Just sounded dirty to me.
I agree with Fredrik.
Too much Surface noise to be VG++ (or EX as many Sellers use). Constant background Surface noise is heard through my phones. No big clicks and not too much groove distortion though, but it sound like someone is frying eggs in the background.
Maybe a cleaning improves things a bit but I bet if you look up close under strong light you would see a lot of fine lines or scratches.
The rarity of the record should not affect the grade – but it sure affects the price 😉
This is very interesting. Well, I guess I have higher standards than you guys, 🙂 The surface noise is quite imposing to me. I guess I have only M+++ records then, huh? If it’s just dirt, fine, but would you bet over 3000 dollars (or more) that it’s just dirt or is it actually wear?
Gregory, regarding to play this copy, of course! I play all my records. I have not bought them for investment purposes, I have bought them to play them, the rest of my life. I think you would be nuts to but all these gems and not play them. That the whole point to this whole thing for me. I would never ever put on a later pressing or reiusse on my turntable. I would never buy those. I only collect, buy and listen to original 1st pressings of these great artists. The sound, the feeling, the smell, all the stuff we love about these originals are needed for me to fully enjoy this hobby. Like I would have my, for example, M- copy of 1588 just sitting on the shelf, and put on a reissue, or god forbid a FLAC file when I feel like listening to it, is just utterly and completely nuts, when you’ve paid over 3000 dollars for the record. It’s impossible for me to understand people buying these rarities for this kind of money and not listening to them at all. There’s no point then I think. then it’s like having a painting on the wall, just looking at it, when you actually need to listen to the record to fully enjoy it’s benefits? That’s collecting in the wrong sense I believe. To work your ass off to save up for them and when you finally get them home you put them on the shelf? Fat chance, at my place they’ll get on the turntable straight away where they belong. I don’t play my records excessively. I play them when I feel like it. It’s hard to play a record every day when you have a wife and 2 kids but I guess I’ll play them more when I get older. Then I’ll really sink into my collection every day I think. I will buy the 1568 w. the NY23 later, and make no mistake… I will play it and enjoy it. I’ve rambled on enough now I think 🙂 Have a good one!
Fredrik, your Religion is mine: I search for original pressing only, I listen to original pressing only, I pay (a lot) for original pressing only. A couple of weeks ago I had an original 1590 in my hands, beautiful, perfect with a minor blemish only, the price. Take it or leave it? I did not sleep that night but that record is mine.
I dont think 1568 is as rare as people make it out to be. I have seen it come up for auction a lot more than some other 1500 series Blue Notes.
I don’t know that I understand how age and scarcity could impact a play grade. To my mind, incorporating those factors into a grade turns the entire range into a sliding scale – a vg+ on a 1967 album being different than a vg+ on a 1957 album. It seems that allowing age and scarcity to affect a play grade opens that grade up to too subjective a determination: as a buyer I could not accurately anticipate what a seller considers a vg+ album from a specific era to sound like. It seems this would hamper the usefulness of grading, which rests on its objective, unchanging nature. That’s how i see it, though I would be very interested in being shown a different path in thought.
fredrik:
oh of course! i listen to all of my records too, but being a young collector, perhaps my most valuable record would fetch 300$ on a good day. this notion of 1000$+records is so insane to me. and then ACTUALLY PAYING the 1000$+ dollars as opposed to the opportunity score… it’s just crazy. but, if i had the money, i’d probably be on this like syrup on hotcakes.
my point? i’ll play a 300$ record any day, and if i had a 4000$ copy of 1568, maybe i’d play that too, but not nearly as often. only as a special occasion. investment or not, it would be a shame to accidentally reduce a VG+ 3000$+ to a G 500$ just by accident.
and we’ve all had accidents. i dropped a metal piece of my spare cartridge on my “kulu se’ mama” as it spun. it is in a better place now… and has been replaced.
mike:
i think the rarity causes the constant selling, backwards as it sounds. people trade it like a stock investment, which is a shame. buy it, sell it for 600$ profit, etc.
oh, and i only collect original pressings, too, but there are exceptions for everything. rigidity is the stuff bad choices are made of, if you ask me.
The question of whether you should rate an LP from the mid 50’s diffeently than one form the 70’s will never be fully resolved – rating aside, however, I would love to have that copy of 1568 (though not for 3 G’s), but would not add to my collection a copy of, say, 84901 with as much noise. Maybe my old ears aren’t hearing what some of you younger guys are, but I don’t hear background noise except in the quietest passages (and between tracks) – that to me is probably a VG+ rather than a VG++; but the important question is would you buy it (for the right price) — I would
What I am wondering is how the seller of the G Cool Struttin has a reserve over the 660 final bid. He also had a Davis Cup graded G that didn’t hit reserve with a bid of 320. To me both of the prices are insane, but to not even hit reserve?!?!
I would say that the sound clip of 1568 is VG+. I personally would accept this level of noise on such collectible record, but not the price (not yet)…
Following Al’s insught in the recent “Sanity and Insanity” column,I will temper my comments re:prices. Whether 3K or $600,the winning bids are out of my price range. It would be nice to make those kind of bids when warranted,but like the saying goes,”I would if I could,but I can’t…so I shan’t!”
That’s “insight”,folks(oops).
I have some original pressing Prestige LPs that play with much more surface noise than that 1568. And these are albums that are NM and either never been played or seldom played. That recycled vinyl stock that Bob Weinstock used and all to save money.
Trying to find vinyl that plays CD quiet will be a maddening quest for anyone that has been collecting for more than a few years. It’s simply not possible with some labels, albums, etc. Blue Note fans are lucky in that Lion/Wolff were perfectionists in all areas.
Off topic … 12-13 April, Utrecht, Netherlands – everyone who is interested to meet, have a coffee and chat about collecting jazz records, please email info@gorelica.com
well, it’ll be the third highest price for 1568 ever in the price guide. damn!
Hank Mobley 1568, final price $5223.00. Hasn’t this broken the record?
I have three minds about that – (1) CRAZY!!!, (2) every idiotic new bid out there makes my collection worth more, and (3) chance of my getting hold of some of my life’s desires is basically out the window
RE: the Mobley sound clip:
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1. The needle drop is in stereo and the quality of the actual rip is quite poor quality (the mono image is off center and the surface noise is panned hard left and right). That being said, surface noise will be less noticeable in true mono, but IMO for this record it takes it out of the ranks of VG++.
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2. There does seem to be a tinge of groove wear on the louder horn blasts, which accordingly to my perhaps more conservative and strict grading standards puts it in the category of a strong VG.
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IMO, an honest seller will not use a sliding scale depending on the vintage and rarity of a record. But I have learned to stay away from VG+ for this very reason; more liberal graders will place records that I really think are VG in this category.
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As for this record graded VG++? Regardless of how much I paid for it, nope, going back. Smart collectors consider the potential resale value of what they buy if they grade honestly when they bid. (That’s a whole other story for another time, how when people buy records that are overgraded and go to resell them, they are more likely to overgrade the record again, thus repeating a vicious cycle of overgrading.)
The winner of the 1568 is completely nuts and have paid at least 2500-3000 dollars too much for this record. I would grade the vinyl VG after listening to the sound clip. A crisp, fresh, M- copy of this record with virtually zero noise should fetch maybe 4500-5500 dollars. Some are more conservative than others when it comes to grading, but this is crazy…or insane was the word, I believe.
All I have to say is thank goodness none of the records on my “want list” are Prestige or Blue Note. I’m usually looking for Pacific, Tampa and Mode. Must be because we see those more frequently on the West Coast than on the East, where Prestige and Blue Note are a bit more prevalent. If I were looking to add Blue Note and Prestige on my want list, I think my want list is going to go unfulfilled.