Stitt and Braith and What is Collectible (and Why?)
Interesting discussion on the previous post about buying/selling records on eBay and dealing with returns. I haven’t sold on eBay in about six years, ever since my real business took off, but when I did I offered a full return policy and typically also included postage. I had a couple of people take advantage, but most transactions went very smoothly. Like Bill, I tended to under grade the records a bit just to avoid any problems. If I felt anyone was scamming me, or if they were returning records frivolously, I blocked them so they couldn’t bid on any more of my records. Anyway, back to business: Sonny Stitt, Stitt’s Bits, Prestige 7133. This was an original New York yellow label. It was listed in M- condition for the record and the cover, but it’s clear from the photos that the cover is not M-. This record sold for $405. I don’t recall too many of the Stitt records selling for this amount, and not this one. I’m a Stitt fan, but I know he’s never been popular among collectors, so what is the story here?
This one also fetched a relatively hefty price, all things considered:George Braith, Two Souls in One, Blue Note 4148. This was an original New York USA pressing with the ear and the Van Gelder in the dead wax. The final price was $332. In the prior post there’s a discussion about Blue Notes and how it is becoming the label, and not necessarily the artists or the music, that is becoming the deciding collectible factor for many buyers. I don’t own this record and I don’t know the music so I’m not commenting on the quality of this record, but I do not remember the Braith Blue Notes being all that collectible a few years ago. But, then again, I felt the same about the Quebec records and look what has happened to them. Perhaps now is the time to sweep up all of The Three Sounds and Jimmy Smith trio originals before they become priced out of range.
I think you are dead-on Al. A rising tide is lifting all boats (including the poor man’s Charlie Parker 😉 ). I haven’t won an eBay auction in a long time because the prices for collectible BNs, Prestige, etc. are thru the roof. Only the wealthiest collectors seems to be able to snatch up the top tier artists on those labels, and now it seems more about the label and owning a piece of history than about the music. I have both of those records, but paid $8 for the Stitt and $45 for a really nice copy of the Braith a few years back. This is where there is probably softness in the market in the future. People will always value and pay for quality; high prices for average artists are likely to drop. When will that happen? I have given up trying to guess. Maybe when all the Millennials with turntables turn to Walkmen as their music vehicle of choice.
Looks like the ear-less Ike Quebec “Blue & Sentimental” auction we were all commenting about ended at $754. I find it hard to believe that the sale will go through, but we’ll see.
Speaking of shocking results, I can’t seem to find the frames on this jacket, yet it still broke $2,700:
http://m.ebay.com/itm/JUTTA-HIPP-w-ZOOT-SIMS-BLUE-NOTE-1530-DG-RVG-Mono-Lexington-Ave-label-/391563102326?nav=SEARCH
Even though it appears that the vinyl has all first press indicators, I would be pretty disappointed if this arrived without the frame jacket for that kind of price! It might just be the lighting or the camera angle, so I messaged the seller about whether there were frames, but never received a response.
dave, millenials that are into vinyl for some reason other than music are not buying collectible jazz originals. trust me. i am a millenial. i know many. they are the market for OJC if anything.
also, did i miss something? why don’t we like M- cover grade on the stitt? surely it is VG++ at least?
i really should look at everything before i comment: last one, here.
i can see the frame on the jutta hipp. top left, the horizontal line is most obvious of the two. looks good to me!
The hyper focus on first press record, then first press cover is I believe getting out of hand. But that’s just me.
As for returns, buyers take advantage of the return policy more than people realize on eBay. eBay now requires a 30 day return policy to attain Power Seller status. and there are many buyers that eat that up. I used to sell records a ton on eBay, but no longer!
@Greg – I’m still not seeing it clearly. There’s another copy listed on the Bay right now and it’s clearly a copy with the frame jacket.
Don’t understand the price on that Stitt record, except it’s a yellow fireworks NYC Prestige and that inflamed someone’s passion for some reason. Just get “Personal Appearance” on Verve for $20 and call it a day. It’s a much better record and will cost you $375 less. My favorite Sonny Stitt LP.
Walter Davis jr. Davis Cup in EX condition. Number: 131948998320
Al: you write that you used to block buyers, you would not sell to. I am in a similar position and want to block buyers. How can this be done? What practical steps on EBay?
Rudolf-
I’ve only blocked a buyer once, but I think I got to the page to do it by typing in “how to block a buyer on eBay” in Google, which took me to a page titled “Blocked Bidder- eBay” that was from eBay, and it just had a link where I logged in and copy-pasted the guy’s user ID onto a no-bid list. (Guy tried to rip me off with an item-not-received claim when it couldn’t possibly have arrived yet, and then when that failed, he threatened to reopen the claim after it had arrived unless I gave him $50. I kept his money, reported him, and put him on my no-bid list. It was fun. I guess I should update my list… I have a few bad apple buyers that have tried to scam me or have refused to pay me that maybe deserve to be on there.)
Anyways, I hope you find what you’re looking for, and I hope that I said something useful.
I no longer sell records internationally on ebay, because its expensive, it takes time if you want to do it seriously, and i ‘ve had more and more problems with bidders asking for a partial rebate, discussing postage prices, and a certain japanese bidder that tried to rip me off with a non received item. I had so hard times trying to make Paypal and Ebay understand the guy was a scam artist, i decided to never ever sell any record on Ebay off my country.
Regarding the no ear Ike Quebec that sold for 700 more : now Blue Note/ Prestige is not collected for the music, just for the hype, for the show. No problem for me, i just focus on other labels and let them pay too much… Anyway, market is always right…
THANKS TURBOCHARGED WEASEL. I will try it your way.
Regarding Sonny Stitt and his lack of popularity. I have almost every Downbeat magazine from the 50s & 60s. I can’t recall any artist being trashed by the Downbeat record review critics more than Stitt. Most of his lps were rated around 2 stars with reviewers complaining that he’s boring, that he’s just going thru the motions, etc. One of the few exceptions was the lp that Joe L recommended above, “Personal Appearance”. In 1960, Ira Gitler gave this lp a 5 star rating & said “every jazz lover should own this set.”
jrock,
i still see it, on a different monitor now, though. right through the “JUT”.
jason,
a hobby. that’s all it is!
Rudolf-
You’re welcome. Did you manage to get the person blocked?
yes, TC Weasel, I just did it, thanks to your help. I would never have managed it without your hint to go on google. In the end, it was “WIKI how to do…” which gives a step by step solution. In the end one arrives at blocking certain categories of people. I had to look for, and finally find, the individual exclusion button. I am feeling much more relaxed now with 13 Blue Notes just listed this weekend.
Sonny Stitt: I think the fault lies with Teddy Reig of Roost, who indiscriminately overrecorded Stiit in the fifties. PrLp 7133 is a collection of early fifties material, nothing special compared to “Personal Appearance”. The only valuable Prestige Stitt album is Stiit/Powell/J.J.. Stitt on tenor all the way, end forties (PrLp 7024).
Walter Davis jr. Davis Cup. Superb original. Item Number131950034020
It seems like a lot of the Jutta Hipp and Zoot have no frame for some reason. There was just 4 different copies on ebay and none of them had the frame cover.
Concerning Stitt;
Although not the greatest of sax players, I am surprised at the level of criticism here of certainly a quite competent artist. This recording is pretty ordinary, showing Stitt in 1950 sax-and-rythm settings, and I consider it pretty much of historical interest, if nothing else than perhaps because it’s probably his first recording after switching from alto to tenor.
In Straight Life, Pepper describes a pick-up live performance of “Cherokee”with Stitt that sounds nothing short of incredible. “He played, I don’t know, about 40 choruses. He played for an hour, maybe, did everything could be done on a saxophone, everything you could play, as much as Charlie Parker could have played if he’d been there.” Pretty high praise. Pepper then goes on to describe his amazing come-back: if you have a chance read it [pp 475-6]
Stitt’s level of performance was obviously variable, but at his best, IMHO, he was up there with the greatest.
If I’m granted one wish on the other side, I will ask to be back there at that performance!
Stitt brought all his bits and his tenor to form one part of “the eternal triangle” with Rollins and Dizzy in ’57 on the lp “Sonny side up” for Verve. Quite simply,it’s an old fashioned barn burner and a great foot race with Rollins going first,then Stitt, and then comes the trading and the chest pounding and spit is flying.To me, Sonny has the disadvantage of starting and setting the tempo because when the other Sonny comes in he is flying. It is at this sweltering tempo where he really excels and we hear him tear it open and he opens his bag of tricks,the other Sonny is running along the bus but can’t get back on but now it is over, and Dizzy has the floor. Sonny Stitt- 1957,man,it was a VERY GOOD year.
@Mike – it seems that the frame cover version is much more rare than the early thin laminated jacket. The recent auction from the Japanese seller “johnelway” had the frame jacket and sold for a hair above $2k yesterday.
Thanks to those who have gone before. Anybody who ever put the devil’s horn to their lips knows that Sonny paved the way……some people do not know of what they speak. I beg the non believers to listen again.
Stitt’s lasting legacy from at least his fellow musicians seems to be that he was a “snitch”. Stan Levey singularly blames Stitt for throwing him under the bus to avoid jail in his biography. I wonder if the in-the-know jazz crowd knew that Stiff was cooperating with police and to what extent this might have affected the reviews his albums received.
I appreciate Sonny Stitt, i really don’t care if he was bashed by critics in the 50-60’s – so many were, including in France, Hank Mobley, Lee Morgan, Bobby Hutcherson, in fact all the Blue Note league and even, for other reasons, Conte Candoli and Chet Baker (yes, Chet). I’ve read Art Peppers comments on Sonny and they are quite impressive. Musicians often know what they are talking about. Sonny was a great saxophone player, its alaways a pleasure to hear him.
I’d be happy to own a NM copy of Personnal Appearance on Verve TPT label. If someone wants to get rid of…I’d ba happy to help.
Rudy Van Gelder just passed away. There is almost always a connection to collectibility with the death of a prominent figure related to what is being collected. I imagine if you try hard enough you’ll create a trend toward expensive Jimmy Smith blue notes, but in my opinion that’s a ways off
FYI — take a look at the comment posted by Duke Pearson’s nephew. It’s under latest comments, or this post: https://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/shock-and-awe/comment-page-1/#comment-437947
For anyone who wants to email him:
readyrudy30315@yahoo.com
Emailed him — I’m an archivist by profession and may be able to help. We’ll see.