The Lasting Value of Blue Notes. Or Not
Jazz Collector is on WordPress and, as such, I have access to a bunch of statistics on the site. I mention this because I noticed yesterday that there was a spike in viewership and many of the readers were looking at a trio of articles I wrote in 2010 when my friend Red Carraro passed away. Original articles are here, here and here. Anyway, I dug a little deeper and the new viewers came from this site, Steve Hoffman Music Forums. There’s a whole discussion going on there about Blue Notes and prices and why collectors pay so much for them and whether the market will continue to rise or whether it will eventually plummet and die. Worth taking a look, and perhaps worth continuing over here. For my part, I am of two minds. The great thing about the original pressings is that they will always be the only originals no matter how many times they are reissued and there will always be a limited supply. Plus, the look great, sound great, and certainly capture the era and the feeling like nothing else. Then again, you get the sense that today’s most avid collectors are probably in their 50s and up, and perhaps that is being generous. Twenty years from now, when those collectors are gone and/or not pursuing the passion so avidly, will people still care so much for original Kenny Dorham or Hank Mobley records? We will have passed the point where anyone alive will even remember when some of these artists were alive and creating the music, and will have no recollection of ever seeing these records in record stores or shop windows. You do wonder if the market is sustainable for future generations. At least I do. By the way, some other quick stats for you. We now average about 1,100 page views every day on Jazz Collector and we are approaching 1.2 million total views since we started the site. Not bad, huh?
I don’t know, Al. For instance: people collect art (old, new, it doesn’t matter) and are willing to fork out big money for it. Will there ever be a decline in that market? Maybe that has been discussed to the hilt as well. And still, up to this day, old and young people buy art.
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My point here is, that people will always “collect things”. Collecting art never stopped because of old art collectors passing away. And imho the same goes for jazz. Maybe there will be less collectors in the future, but still they’re there.
Hi Al, in my experience with that website they are mostly interested in inferior sounding audiophile reissues and bad mouth original pressings. Sorta the equivalent of members of a Hyundai message board bad mouthing Porsches.
Van Gelder was a master craftsman at what he did, but the gentlemen over there do not acknowledge that.
While an interesting topic in general, the SH forums are probably not the best place for readers of this blog to have that discussion. Most of those guys worship at the altar of SH, and think it only sounds good if he remastered it. SH himself said (in that discussion, and on many other occasions) that the original BNs mastered by RVG don’t sound good to him, and all his acolytes will agree. That is a viewpoint, but it does not inform the market, as those folks would never buy originals anyway, and thus don’t impact the market. And is also why I stopped reading the SH forum. It’s bizarre to constantly read about how SH FINALLY captured the magic of . . . take your pick of any number of classic records that sound superb in original form.
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Anyway, the market will fluctuate, like all markets do, and it’s impossible to predict. Perhaps jazz will be become hip 20 years from now. Who knows?
The Market will never completely go away, though it might sag a bit. Here are my thoughts as to why..
1. Japan
2. Rabid Warhol collectors will always drive the market, at least for the Burrell Blue Notes
3. I’m in my 30s, and didn’t start collecting jazz until my early 30s, though I’d always been a vinyl collector of some sort. There is a whole new generation of twenty somethings (the ones that call records “vinyls”) who are buying records like crazy, and are now starting to get turned onto the whole jazz thing. This is partly driven by the resurgence of vinyl, a fad that will possibly die down after a bit, but there will be at least a core group of dedicated collectors.
This is pretty much the case now, and this group will continue to drive the market and keep the prices up, at least on the higher end stuff.
My thoughts anyway.
I’m a member of the Hoffman forums, and I participated in that discussion. There are several good people I know there, but that forum does indeed attract a special bunch of people who for lack of a better term are sycophants. I suppose that is the nature of that kind of space, and I take the good and ignore the rest.
I think I offer a perspective that is unique in that I’m a young person who acquired a sizable amount of original pressings from a mentor years ago who after his retirement moved to Ghana with his wife. He was not only a collector, but these were records he bought at their time of release himself and he was friends with many of these musicians, so he offered many interesting narratives. He imparted with me many of the now highly sought Blue Notes, Prestiges, Riversides etc. Through him, I too became a collector and I bought things whenever I could.
After a while, I just looked over at this huge amount of money just sitting there on shelves. The music is something I love, but I don’t necessarily care that a record is a first pressing. I don’t need a record to be from 1960 to listen to music from 1960. It wasn’t important to me anymore. It used to be, but something happened, and it just didn’t matter to me anymore. It just felt like a huge time sink and waste of energy and resources hunting things down. For me, it wasn’t worth it. My mentor didn’t care what I did with them, and gave me his blessing to sell them. And that I did. I sold most of them, and with that money, I paid off some of my student loans, pocketed a bunch, traveled internationally and just lived and enjoyed life. I’m fine with reissues. It might be heresy on this blog, but many of the Music Matters pressings sounded better to my ears than the original counterparts. I sat down and listened. That’s just my opinion of course, and you’re free to disagree, which I don’t doubt many of you will.
Now, with respect to what the future holds, no one knows. Everything is just speculation. I personally think the market is shrinking. Will it disappear entirely? No, but the appreciators willing to drop big bucks in my estimation is not growing. It’s the same core group of people in a perpetual echo chamber chasing the same things. (middle-aged white men and middle-aged Japanese men). I’ve been around a fair bit of collectors in several countries, and the amount of I have met that were in my demographic (young black male) was a grand total of 1.
Oh, I know a plethora of jazz lovers my age and musicians as well, but the collectors who pay tons of money for these records was the same core group no matter where I went, including outside the US. If you doubt this, then perform a little social experiment and gather all the people you know or talk to that share this passion you have. You’ll see it’s more or less the same people.
There are outliers and I’m sure some 20-something or 30-something collector might chime in to say they too drop a lot of dosh on original pressings, which I don’t doubt they do, but they are the exceptions to the rule. I was an exception to the rule too. I was a 20-something collector a few years ago, surrounded by middle-aged men. The exception doesn’t change the rule. This is largely an old man’s game. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But we need to be honest about that. Things don’t grow when the core audience is teetering on geriatric. The market will hold steady, but it will get smaller as time goes on. What will always remain is the appreciation and reverence of the music, but we shouldn’t confuse that with people spending thousands on Hank Mobley records. Will that still be happening 30 years from now? Only time will tell.
Of course, these are just my opinions.
Cheers,
Atane
I believe there are two main factors:
1. popularity of vinyl as audio recording medium
2. popularity of jazz music in future generations
Now some facts:
ad1. sales of LP in USA:
2007: 1,3 mio
2008: 2,9 mio
2009: 3,2 mio
2010: 4,0 mio
2011: 5,5 mio
2012: 7,1 mio
accordingly anual growth 2012 in UK: 15%, Germany: 36% (up to 1 mio), etc.
ad2. I am amazed how many new jazz festivals are being started every year (at least in Europe) and how many young people attend.
Does not sound bad, or?
AL~
Wow. We must have been on the same wavelength today…
I was eyeing up a Blue Note way out of a 20-something’s budget when I asked myself the question of jazz collecting’s future.
My opinion is that the appeal for Blue Notes and other labels will last as long as they have been around (and jazz music in general). Jazz has a certain international appeal few other genres enjoy. Everyone can understand the language of jazz.
Which brings me to the ubiquity of jazz music and pop culture. It only takes a few trips around the world to see Americana in every major city. You will be sure to encounter daily a wealth of baseball hats with the familiar NY Yankees or LA Dodgers logo. People abroad are in LOVE with the mythological aspects of American culture. Blue Notes, founded at the “jazz corner of the world,” I think, inspire this authenticity. It’s the king of cool.
It’s also easy listening, like classical music. I think as people get older, their tastes in music mature and tend to include a genre that doesn’t incite them to go to Woodstock and spread free love or bob up and down to a digital hum of chaos (what we kids call dubstep). Jazz STILL fulfills this niche.
Here’s what I DO think what will change in the world of record collecting: the emergence of a new record grading/price coupling. The system was made at a time when the records we see as collectible now sold at retail and were plentiful. The difference between a NM record and a VG+ was only a few dollars. With every passing auction, I see a diversion from the Goldmine guide to a new stratospheric price.
Interestingly enough it looks like I’m the third person in their 30s to chime in here. I believe overall record (i.e. vinyl) sales, and with it their value, will diminish in the next decade, but I also believe the truly rare early Blue Notes in M- shape will hold steady. I wish they wouldn’t as most are out of my budget, but I also don’t have any problem enjoying my reissues (Classic, APO, MM, etc.).
Re-issues are fine. A lot of people get exposed to music they otherwise couldn’t afford to listen to. That’s how I got my start, those Prestige re-issues in the 70’s.
A lot of young people are paying big dollars for some fine audio equipment, and eventually, those old jazz originals will find their way to the turntables of those young people.
“Plus, they look great, sound great, and certainly capture the era and the feeling like nothing else. ”
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*nods head*
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If a lot of vintage jazz collectors are in their 50s and 60s, how old would that make them in 1960? A 65 years old today would have been about 10 years old in 1960; 15 in 1965. That seems like the cutoff for identifying with this music during the crucial teenage years of one’s development. If you’re any younger, you must have some degree of “nostalgic” appreciation of this music. In other words, I believe the majority of collectors have an appreciation of classic jazz that does not come from the music being current and popular when they were young or even alive. This, to me, is an indication that there is a timelessness to this music. As for whether or not these younger people have an interest in vintage vinyl, this also seems to be true and evidenced in the vinyl revival of the last decade. I think this stuff is here to stay!
Joe, I appreciate your comments. I don’t believe Hoffman (or his followers) are anywhere near the mindset of Van Gelder in front of the board or at the cutting head, meaning that for whatever reason they don’t seem to value the experience of listening to this music the way the artist (Van Gelder) intended it to be heard.
Atane, I enjoyed your post as well. Interesting comments on the demographic of jazz collectors. You make a lot of valid points in argument of the market shrinking.
Music Matters re-masterings are far superior to the originals in my opinion. I have now sold off most of my originals. I am in it for the music not a collector.
Hello all. Just want to chime in as a 30 year old collector who has been collecting since 2009. I’m from Chicago and there is a pretty good jazz and free jazz scene here. I’m enjoying following the progression of some friends from searching the dollar bin at the store to hunting for original pressings.
I’m not sure where the market will go, but as for myself I’ve made a few purchases that have made it into the thousand dollar bin on here. However I also buy a lot of Bergenfield 2nd pressings of my favorite prestiges because they sound just as good to me as the first press. I do believe that the originals sound better than the reissues; it could be that I play my records on 50s equipment, but reissues just sound flat to me. I have a ton of reissues too though because I just want to hear the music, but they always make me want to find the original if I like the album. Anyway, I expect myself to be at this for a long time to come and I still see brilliance in owning these records rather than dollar signs when I look at my shelf.
Well, I’m 26…
And while I admit I am way more interested in the free music, and I mostly collect Impulse, ESP-Disk, Strata-East, etc…
I think good music will last.
Interestingly, we don’t have any standard to compare the Blue Note phenomenon to for reference. Records pressed before the Lexington years and beyond are not comparable: 78’s, awkward and easily broken, not as good sound, and very short, made for the ‘singles’ market. This is a new thing. Only time will tell, but even if people decide they don’t need BN-1568, they will probably always love good jazz, no matter how old they are.
I know I will.
@Bob: good to hear! I just visited Chicago recently, and there were some great stores and scores for me!
To give some historical perspective – here is a 1981 NY Times article “In Pursuit of Rarities Among Jazz Records” which discusses “the latest ‘underground’ rage: the jazz auction of out-of-print LP’s among private collectors.”
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The author states that he suspects “the majority of those buying and selling in jazz auctions are middle-class white males between the ages of 25 and 55. The very young are not as enamored of the past, and collectors’ items invariably highlight artists of the past.” So, even in 1981, the idea was that collectors were older-ish males. As that is true today (I’m 40, for example), it seems the age range has not changed, but has rather simply be repopulated with a new batch of 25-55 year olds. Plus more international buyers in that age range, I suppose.
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http://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/08/arts/in-pursuit-of-rarities-among-jazz-records.html
Great point Joe. This supports my belief that the demographic will always be an older group (perhaps predominantly white males), but it will continue to turn over.
I don’t really care whether my precious jazz collection will increase in value or not. If it increases, i will have made a good investment. And if it decreases i will be able to buy more titles i’m missing. In both cases, it’s all right to me.
All i know, is even if mr SH and his acolytes at Music Matters records are valued 4 k in the future, i will never buy anything from these arrogant know it all.
I’m 37 years old. I love collecting jazz. Only originals. 1st pressings. I’m willing to spend a lot of money on these rarities that I love so much. I’m sure there will be other 37 year old collectors 10, 20, 30 years from now, wanting these rarities as much as I do now. Therefore I think the prices will continue to be high for the real gems. People will always discover music of old and be drawn to it. Collecting it. So, even if there are lot of older collectors right now, I too will be an old collector and there will be other, younger guys like I am now, who will want the reords I want and drive up the prices in the future. But like I’ve said before.. I don’t care if the records will increase in value. I will don’t buy this stuff for an investment. I buy it for me to enjoy for the rest of my life. I will never sell any of my records. Ever.
I am hoping someone knows something about these old Tampa labels. I bought a copy of Carlos Vidal’s “Congo Drums” yesterday. According to Tampa Records Listings (http://jazzdiscography.com/Labels/tampa.htm), Carlos Vidal’s “Congo Drums” is noted as RS-1000 from the RS series. According to this list, there is no Tampa TP-32, which is what the Carlos Vidal record I purchased is labeled. I have looked up other copies on Ebay, and they are all RS-1000 and have a brighter cover than the copy I have. Does anyone know if this is an error copy, or one that is rare? The cover is in good shape, and the record looks good, but alas, someone must have used an inferior stylus on it because there are a lot of snaps and hum on the record itself. This is my 5th Tampa record and I may just look at trying to get the whole catalog (which is not that extensive).
Thanks.
…This is one of my favorite topics here in the Jazz Collective as it really delves into the core reason for why each of us collect Jazz vinyl. More often than not, it’s that quest for that next big score, or the hunt for that rare missing side from our collections that will continually spur us on down the road. Then there is that plethora of “new-old” music for each of us to re-discover that can only be found on vinyl these days. The fact that prices are consistantly on the rise only helps justify our passion wives and friends, even if we never really intend to sell.
There is no doubt that the Lp market is making a comeback as succeeding generations begin to search for a more tactile connection to their music with more current formats (and even their retail counterparts) becoming increasingly obsolete in the age of “instant online gratification”. Not to mention the fact that there is now more competition than ever before for a very limited supply of original vinyl thanks to the internet opening up the market to an entire world of collectors in the last few decades.
Personally, I think there will always be a demand for our treasured Jazz ephemera to some degree but it will naturally recede with time. It is just the nature of our own evolution that what is fashionable or collectable today won’t necessarily be in the future. I suspect we will probably hit the high water mark in the next few decades as a new generation raised by technology is left with the stewardship (or burden) of dealing with our own collections, in the same way we have inherited our parents treasures and liquidate in favour of a clean basement and a college fund for the kids. For the most part, we have outgrown the stamp, coin and card collections of past generations, and found our own passions, as will future generations. That being said, there will always be those few “old souls” in the world (like us here in the JC) who still long for the days gone by, and want to re-connect with the music in a way that only the thrill of a first pressing can provide.
don-lucky – very well said.
Don, I concur: you make great points. Record collecting could very well be likened to stamp or coin collecting–it may fall out of fashion at some point. But I dunno, records are preeetty cool in comparison to some boring old stamps and coins haha 😉
I do for the most part agree with Don, except for the bit about coin collecting! The number of active coin collectors still far outweigh the number of jazz record collectors, and I know this, because I am both! 🙂
A Coin, is also a cultural and an historic artifact from a certain period in human history, and it does provide a physical contact with that particular period in a similar way a first pressing does (but without the nice music of course!). I do prefer jazz records collecting though!
Regarding the Carlos Vidal Tampa TP-32. I have now read two separate sources that say the TP-32 is an original and the RS-1000 is a re-issue.
Off topic, but in reference to our earlier debates about the rise of United Artists/Blue Note reissues: I was watching three gems that I wanted to have.
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As to be expected I won none of them. All three copies on my watch list fetched top dollar… 🙁
collecting can have an investment angle. but the arrival of the microgroove lp in 1949, as a new standard, heralded, for the first ime, a relatively high-quality means of storing,distributing music, and listening (assuming good-grade contemporary pick-ups – equipment used.- FOR THE FIRST TIME. that it con-incided with post-war II primarily upbeat, new sounds provided by composers/performers whose artistry not equalled before or since.I rather think that the cd wil lcome to be valued almost as much – the last physical format of consequence.
once the streaming industry has complete control, despite competition between ‘players’, the cost of music will escalate. making the LP and CD even more attractive to some. the abysmal mp3 formats, which have become the defacto standard, destroying the magic of van gelder’s efforts and others. as long as archiving of master recordings are held both in analog and hi-bit depth,high sampling digital. there is hope. I am keeping my lps, making convenient digital copies….just in case ;)-. Iam not alone.born in 1950, I diid not start collecting until 1999 – prices were reasonable, unlike new lp prices in my youth – beyond my means.