The New Abnormal?
Interesting article in The New York Times yesterday about how the pandemic has created a spike in the market for collectibles (Here’s How Bored Rich People Are Spending Their Extra Cash). While I think the headline is not quite accurate and designed to attract eyeballs rather than inform (hey, I am still a journalist/editor at heart), the premise of prices going up for collectibles certainly pertains to our jazz vinyl market here at Jazz Collector. Although records are not one of the collectibles mentioned in the article, a lot of our recent posts have been about skyrocketing prices. Perhaps it’s a phenomenon of the pandemic and will wither a bit when the world goes back to some kind of new normal, or maybe it’s indicative of a market that seems to know no ceiling. Whatever it is, it’s becoming more and more tempting to get back in the game and start selling records again. Let’s see why, starting with J. R. Monterose, Blue Note 1536. This was an original Lexington Avenue pressing listed in Ex condition for the cover and record. Based on the pictures of the cover that Ex would translate into VG (at best) if I was looking to buy. The final price was $2,650.
Joe Henderson, Page One, Blue Note 4140. This was an original mono pressing that was listed in M- condition for the record and VG+ for the cover. Again, I look at pictures of the back cover and think that VG+ is a stretch, which naturally makes me question if the M- is also a stretch. The top bid was $898 – and that failed to meet the seller’s reserve price. I realize that these are Blue Notes but, still, is this what to expect as the new normal?
Ridiculous grading continues to be an issue. The back of both jackets are a mess. Instead of “light discoloration” and “light aging”, I would think “heavily soiled” would be more appropriate. Thankfully there are photos which explain the true conditions. I think I would rather bid on later pressings in much better condition for a much lower price.
The Monterose cover I would grade VG at best, yeah.
If I were selling that Henderson I would say the cover was a weak VG+ with notable foxing and chipping verso.
always best to elaborate on your grade, to reduce disappointed buyers.
I have also recently seen some crazy prices for Classic Records Blue Note reissues from the mid-2000s, which typically sell for $50-$100. The seller was very clear what they were but maybe non-English speakers drove up the bidding? J.R. Monterose for $205 (there is a copy still up for $55 Buy-It-Now) https://www.ebay.com/itm/J-R-Monterose-Blue-Note-1536-MINT/174681555924?hash=item28abd503d4:g:yFcAAOSwFNhgTTcB
Introducing Johhny Griffin for $248 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Introducing-Johnny-Griffin-Blue-Note-1533-MINT-/174681560060?hash=item28abd513fc%3Ag%3AkuYAAOSwgvdgTTh-&nma=true&si=Yo1PW%252B%252F1ETu83TmzBifaANDOwKo%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
and Lee Morgan Candy for $600! https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lee-Morgan-Candy-Blue-Note-1590-/174655610545?hash=item28aa491eb1%3Ag%3AkoAAAOSwkd9gOYfD&nma=true&si=Yo1PW%252B%252F1ETu83TmzBifaANDOwKo%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
These have to be mistakes right? Bidders thinking they are bidding on originals?
Al, that NYT article also caught my eye. True, records weren’t mentioned. However, akin to Mickey Mantle rookie baseball cards and Nike ‘80’s era Air Jordans, the finite number left of, say Blue Note originals, increases the value to those whose monetary assets are seemingly infinite.
Sold my Lexington Monterose for $125.00 some decades ago at the onset of the cd “perfect sound forever” era. Thought I made out. Geesh, if I only knew.
Liquidity questions aside, that Rally app offering fractional shares on collectibles could very easily be manipulated to push prices ever higher.
I read the same article and immediately thought “records”
I don’t think records have made that leap into the super collectable world. While thousands of dollars is nothing to sneeze at, it’s far below the collectables mentioned in the article. If records were in the same stratosphere as say trading cards we’d see records like True Blue going for tens of thousands of dollars. Will this ever happen? No clue.
Some collectables like cars and watches are status symbols while others like comics and trading cards are easily graded and can be hermetically sealed (heck even toys can these days). Records seems to be in a third category.
Perhaps record collecting is too varied with all of its genres to become super collectable. If you ask a baseball card collector what’s their holly grail I’m guessing most would say the Mantle rookie (or perhaps Honus Wagner). If you ask a record collector the same question you would get any number of answers based on their musical tastes, and of course the Mantle/Wagner cards never go out of style like some musical genres.
About 30 years ago my late sister and her asshole husband at the time got into collecting baseball cards on speculation. They bought the highest graded Mantle rookie card that had ever been formally graded. I think they paid $30,000 to $40,000 and sold it a few years later for more than $100,000. I’m pretty sure that’s the same card that just sold for $5.2 million.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2021/01/14/1952-mickey-mantle-baseball-card-sells-record-price/6653563002/
..”her asshole husband “.. is certainly not a combination of words i would ever expect in the writings of the erudite mr. A. Perlman… there could be only one conclusion:
he must have been a real asshole.
lets pray for all the assholes out there, and continue listening to beautifull music
@Aaron, i bought the Classic Records Blue Note reissues in the 2000’s . i think they are made beautifully, staying pretty close to the esthetics of the originals, nice if you can not afford those.. i found it strange that i didn’t see them secondhand nowadays in the recordstores.. but there poppin’ up now for high prices
There is a site CW, ’Collectors Weekly’, with different sections, i.a. Vintage Vinyl Records and Vintage Turntables. They send a weekly bulletin to subscribers.
The site is: collectorsweekly.com
The search function allows to go for Blue Note Records for instance and they come with an interesting historical review. Or 10″ albums etc.
I don’t know who is behind the site. I believe auction sites for antiques.
Individual jazz records have not yet risen to the level of the watches and cars Rally creates ETFs with, but a Blue Note 1500 series fund would certainly attract somebody. Blue Note is the Pokemon of jazz.
I’ve been really happy with the Classic titles too, Maarten. Acoustic Sounds was selling them at a discount a couple of years back.
And individuals who own Music Matters Blue Note reissues are getting absurdly high amounts for their records. Two days ago a 45RPM sealed test pressing of Bobby Hutcherson’s “Happenings” sold for $337.50.
I have that exact original Lexington Avenue pressing of the Monterose Lp and the cover is in a bit better condition than the one pictured and the vinyl is in beautiful N/M- or VG+++ condition. Based on what it sold for on Discogs I listed it there at 2K or best offer. We actually took in some rare titles that we listed on there that I know based on past sales people would love! Been record collecting for years and yes the past year or so prices seem to be going crazy!
I don’t think that Henderson cover is over-graded at all; I think most collectors would call that VG+. There are no splits, the spine is fully intact and legible, the top corners look pretty good and the bottoms only mildly rubbed, the front is clean, and the spotting and light soiling on the back (even a couple small chips) seem pretty acceptable for a piece of cardboard that’s almost 60 years old!
As these items get older and older and more and more scarce, I feel like the mid-grade category definitions need to broaden a little, while what falls into VG++/NM- and above tightens even more to recognize only the crème de la crème. There are already so few pristine items left in circulation that those deserving of a coveted NM- or better grade are going to receive it indisputably. But the VG+ range should, in this collector’s opinion, broaden a little to acknowledge that anything below NM- is simply going to have some imperfections — even if it’s simple science, like old paper turns yellow and starts to split — but that doesn’t mean it’s a hunk of junk. It’s still pretty darn impressive for something that’s 60 or 70 years old and was created to be held, handled, and played and not hung on the wall like a painting.
Do I get any “Amens” from the congregation?
Aside from boredom there may be a few other factors at work; namely Youtube, Instagram, and the perception that the American dollar may someday soon become worthless.
Amen
I’m inclined to agree with japhy as well. The Henderson cover actually doesn’t look that much worse to me than the Phil Woods cover from a couple posts back. Both have a little wear on the back but haven’t been abused.
I guess ideally I’d love common usage of the VG grade to step up a bit to cover a some of the VG+ range, but I don’t see that realistically happening. So VG+ (for cover and record) might reflect careful usage, VG careful but frequent usage, G “normal” usage, F damaged but not irredeemable, and P played by raccoons and stored in a chicken coop.
I tend to agree with japhy. The back of the Henderson cover certainly isn’t NM, but doesn’t look much worse than the Phil Woods lp from a couple posts back. Both have some yellowing and wear to the printed text.
Instead of broadening VG+, I’d love to bump up VG a bit. (Not realistically going to happen, I know). VG+ for records played infrequently and carefully, VG for records played more often, but still carefully, G for “averagely” played records, F for records that suffered a few mishaps, but still with retrievable music, and P for records played by badgers in a chicken coop.
I have mentioned this before but feel it is appropriate in this discussion to mention it again: The primary force holding the value of rare jazz vinyl back compared to sports cards and other collectibles is the lack of a grading authentication system like PSA. The implementation of such a system would increase the values exponentially. The majority of lp’s listed on ebay are overgraded. A third party system would eliminate that and give buyers peace of mind that they lp they purchase meets a set group of criteria for that grade. A numerical grading system is also easier to interpret for the average individual. The notion that we should broaden the current grading standards is absurd. No one benefits from that other than sellers.
Japhy — no amen from me. I have higher expectations for a cover graded in VG+ condition. It’s good that sellers typically include several pictures so VG or VG+ can be determined in the eye of the beholder and not just based on the seller’s description.
Terry, we don’t even have an agreed upon standard of grading between eBay and Goldmine/Discogs. eBay uses VG++/Excellent while Goldmine does not. I think a lot of the confusion over what is VG+ stems directly from this. Yes Al pictures are worth 1000 words but they have to be in focus.
Bill: you are correct that there is no agreed upon standard between ebay and discogs which further supports the need for unbiased third party grading. This problem is caused primarily by sellers trying to squeeze an extra inch out of an lp’s grade. It isn’t that sellers aren’t familiar with Goldmine, they just play dumb or ignore it when it’s convenient.
When I see the kind of foxing (age spots) on the Henderson back cover, I always wonder if humidity/dampness and mold were a factor. I stay away from covers that have that type of discoloration … too high a risk.