Updating the $1,000 Bin
What have we been watching lately on eBay? Let’s look at some records for the $1,000 bin:
Sonny Clark, Cool Struttin’, Blue Note 1588. This was an original pressing sold by Atomic Records. The record looked to be VG+ or VG++ and the cover was listed as VG+. The pictures were nice and clear, so perhaps that helped in getting a high bid. This one sold for $2,280.55.
Hank Mobley, Blue Note 1568. This was an original pressing sold by my friend Steve at Round Again records in Providence. The record was in M- condition and the cover was VG. The price was $1,936.88.
John Coltrane, Coltrane, Prestige 7105. This was an original yellow label New York pressing sold by our other friends at Music Matters. It was in M- condition and sold for $1,280.55, definitely a high-water mark for this LP on Jazz Collector.
This one was from our friends at the Jazz Record Center:
Cannonball Adderley, Somethin’ Else, Blue Note 1595. This is the one that’s had a lot of discussion on the site because of the sans serif typeface. It was in M- condition for the record and probably VG++ for the cover and sold for $1,175.
Not sure we’ve ever seen this one in the $1,000 bin before: Hank Mobley, No Room For Squares, Blue Note 4149. This was an original pressing in M- condition. The seller, the reliable roverd-90 described this as one of the greatest jazz LPs ever. Quite high praise. I haven’t listened to this record in years, so I’ll have to put it on the turntable later and see if I agree. This one sold for $1,009.
Love the question at the very bottom of the Sonny Clark: “Shipping to Japan is how much?” -We’ve seen that very same question on many high priced Blue Notes before and had major discussions about it: the ‘Asian Connection’ did it again! 😉
noroom for squares $1,009…. the fun is over…
and i keep on getting surprised by the amount of FP BN 1568 coppies that are handled on ebay…. i mean, 500-600 coppies ever produced, and almost every 3-4 weeks there is another one…..
1009 is amazing for “No Room For Squares”. An this one one has not even a NM cover. My copy is far better ! 🙂 Maybe one of the best Blue Note cover ever, okay… but definitely not the best Mobley session. It is mixed session actually. i like the title song, anyway.
Yeah,I guess we know now where at least SOME of this year’s Wall St. bonus money is going! That is,to me,the quintessential Blue Note cover(4149)-with a title that was like a mantra for many listeners. Priceless!
I somehow doubt the overpaid adolescents on Wall Street put their ill-gotten bonuses into Blue Notes. A Blue Ray of MadMen Season Three maybe, but the ones I have come across have the musical intelligence of a fruitfly.
Scan down the feedback “location” of big ticket winners and you continue to see South East Asia loom large – South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Japan. Then the land-locked wealthy collectors of Germany, Greece and Italy who have no physical access except Ebay.
Having been wiped out last week on an Ebay bid on an NY mono Andrew Hill’s Point of Departure at £170, next day I did a handshake deal with a seller face to face for £65.
Ebay inflates values.
“Ebay inflates values.”-London,I can’t argue with you there. However,the odds of some of those “land-locked..collectors”doing a “face to face” with someone ready to part with these vinyl goodies is often wishful thinking.Ebay brings those sellers right into your living room(at it’s best),while eliminating the need for the “auction-lists” blind bids of years past. Depending on what it is one is hunting for,that often is a “VAT” people are willing to pay.
Hey London Calling, when I read your comment about the Wall Street scum having the musical intelligence of a fruitfly, I just had to make this pun: that’s an insult to the fruitfly! 😀
And, believe it or not, but it is the god-honest-truth: I, too, bought Andrew Hill’s Point of Departure. I bought it today, right after I got home from work. My favourite record store in my city buys and sells used records. I’m friends with the owner and he called me after he closed up. He knew what he could get, but still we made a deal and I bought it from him for 90 Euros which is almost exactly 75 Quid! I went home and asked my neighbour to clean the record for me real quick. I’m playing it as we speak, and it’s in absolute pristine condition, New York USA on both labels, the 43 West 61st St. New York 23, N.Y. address on the back, “Van Gelder” machine stamped in the trail off groove, with the Plastylite ‘ear’ on both sides (although the ear on the A-side is a bit half baked). It’s the mono BLP 4167, no seem splits and a truly immaculate cover. If the comment field allows me again, then I’ll post the photos here later on. I’m just sharing this story ’cause this, too, was a face-to-face deal. And 90 Euros in my opinion is a fair price that made me a happy rookie adding one more gem to his still modest collection 😉
Point of Departure is one of my favorite Andrew Hill’s off all time. I don’t know if anyone here is a fan of “Passing Ships” but I talked to the people at Music Matters and they said they may press this one. Since that session was only released in 03′ it’s never been on vinyl as far as I know. I absolutely love that session. Sorry for the aside.
Hello Mike, I, too, would say that Passing Ships has never been released on vinyl ever. A review on Amazon explains exactly why that is (and I quote): “According to the liner notes written in 2003, Andrew Hill recorded a number of sessions for Blue Note which never went to press, so to speak, due to questionable sound recording quality. In the case of “Passing Ships” – which sat undisturbed in Blue Note’s vault since it was recorded in 1969 – a second stereo tape was discovered in which the sound quality was preserved. Thankfully, Blue Note decided to bring this recording to disc after all these years.” Passing Ships is perfectly available on CD all over the internet and of course through Amazon, as mentioned above. (Also, the amount of “grey” downloads available online of this one is overwhelming by the way) My neighbour with the nifty record cleaning machine cut me a copy on CD-R once and to be honest, the only two tracks that I really, really like are the title track Passing Ships and Yesterday’s Tomorrow. I don’t know, maybe I should listen to it more often and allow it to ‘grow’ on me like a bottle of wine. 😉 And just outta curiosity: since it’s readily available on CD, why wait until Music Matters presses it on vinyl?
I already have the CD, I got it the day it came out after reading an article about it in 03. I love it but am only okay on the sound. I’ve never seen or heard any issue besides the standard Blue Note issue that came out in 03. I was hoping for a HQ re-issue. I have most everything Andrew has out and I would say “Blue Black” and “Passing Ships” are my favorite.
I especially love the Prestige 7105 “Coltrane” album. I am still seeking an original first one…but if the prices adyust at close to 1300 bucks I will stay with my 2nd press (Bergenfield). The price differences between a first and a second press still shock me sometimes. The second presses are maybe only some years younger and pressing quantities are also limited … I only paid 60 USD for my real nice EX- copy…1220 USD less than this original achieved!! Wow!
I’m really stunned because of “No room for squares”. I think, it’s a fantastic album indeed and Hill and Mobley fit well together. But it’s not an uncommon record as well as it is a New York Pressing. So this is something new.
@GW: You’re absolutely right. The best example is maybe “Somethin’ else”. The first pressings gets high prices and if you have a 2nd edition, which was maybe pressed one year later, you can get one for less than half of the price. Or once I wanted to sell a “Cookin'” Bergenfield-pressing of Miles Davis. Almost nobody wanted to pay, because it was a 2nd pressing. I always wonder…
A second pressing of Jackie’s bag went for $700 yesterday. Wasn’t quite in NM- either(one side in VG++). Something crazy is happening this past week or two.
The contrast between eBay prices and face2face deals continues to disturb me. Earlier in the week I picked up a copy of Dexter Gordon’s One Flight Up – NY mono “ear” VG+++ 1st press I reckon, for around $100 in a London s/h store. On playing, it is possibly one of the most beautiful recordings I own. Its humbling just listening to it.
One of the great things about “collecting” is the serendipty. Today I chanced on a copy of Sidney Bechet Vol 1 BN1203, 47W63rd NYC no “r” no “inc”, DG, RVG signature, for £5 ($7) I have had a soft spot for Bechet since Petit Fleur. What a nice way to end an afternoon as the temperature drops and more snow forecast to freeze London for the weekend.
@ London Calling
if you can get a NM Gordon with an “ear” at that price every day I would agree, but… it is about patience in both cases I think … today I got BLP1509 Milt Jackson with Monk, Donaldson & Blakey which I bought on ebay 2 weeks ago for 33€. Labels are Lex/63rd, both the vinyl and the cover are EX+ with NM play – lovely… Anyway I regret not to have too many face2face deal opportunities – need to visit my old buddy in London 🙂
More of these stories, folks! Truly entertaining and educational as well 😉
I love stories like these, too. The funny thing is, that I don’t have original pressings of the aformentioned LP’s, so I could get envious 😉
But I have one story to share. I once met a seller through ebay and met with him. He collected other music but jazz, but recently acquired a small amount of jazz-record. The thing was, that the guy had no idea, what these records could be worth. So I browsed through all these LPs and was slightly disappointed, because most of them were japanese pressings. And a lot of Monk on Rollins, nor really my sought after artists. In between all these Japan-issues there were a couple of interesting records. Rollins’ “Newk’s Time” as a NY-pressing, Blakey’s “Moanin” OG, the red Monk on Blue Note with Lexington-labels and Rollins’ Village Vanguard. So I chatted with the seller and went through all the signs of original pressings with him, as well as I explained the possible prices he may get for the other records. In the end I managed to get the Monk 1511 and the “Rollins at the Village Vanguard” as well as some Japan-pressings of Blue Mitchell, Julian Priester and Barry Harris for 200€, which I found was quite good. Some days later I was angry about myself, not to pick the “Newk’s Time” and “Moanin'”, too…He sold both on ebay for much less, I’d have given to him.
Katharsis, you were way too honest with that seller! You should have set up your best poker face, saying in a very nonchalant fashion “I’m willing to pay you 100 Euro for all records, that’s the best I can do, since you ain’t going to get much more for these old jazz albums that nobody wants”…! And maybe he would have done that deal! Call it bad being good! 🙂
I don’t think so, because he had the pokerface somehow. He knew, that some of the records would be worth quite a bit and it was a bit of testing first, if I’d be honest to him. I think, he would have sold the records to another seller, if he’d recognized, that I was cheating!
Well in that case you did the right thing. Point taken and still you got yourself a few nice gems!
One of my private sellers works in a s/h Record Store – he just used the opportunity of a customer for a cash sale for his own records rather than through the shop. The shops routinely Popsike everything in order to price it, so chance of a bargain is small.
Rather than the naieve seller/ pokerface situation, we both knew exactly what this record could be worth. He’s eying the near-mint mono copy that fetched $450, whilst I’m talking down any fault: “Shame its got someone’s name written on the cover and a small split in the seam” (as though I care!) “Of course its not pristine…” Jousting.
I think we actually arrived at a fair price to each of us (he, cash in hand, me, no postage and though its not perfect, it sounds great!).
A very different experience from a bid battle with deep pockets from around the globe.
Did anyone catch this one?
It said “LP IS DEEP GROOVE”. When looking I can’t quite tell if it is Double sided DG or not(side 2 I can’t tell). If so then this is pretty rare I think? I’ve seen it with no DG and one-sided but never double sided.
Neither side looks DG to me (Side 1 definitely is not). Since it is a “Review Copy” it is likely to be one of the first run which would not be DG anyway as all true first pressings after 4060 have no DG.
That’s a somewhat nice price for that record. But One has to be careful with the DG descriptions. There is One seller at eBay, that describes every Blue Note and Prestige LP as a DG one; even Liberty-issues.
One Addition to the McLean-DG pressing: according to the info of Larry Cohn on this site, there were no Liberty-DGs. If this is true, the UA-DG is even more an oddity, isn’t it?
I watched at the pictures again and I’m not sure, if the Parlan has a deep groove. I would – quite unsure – say, that side one has no DG, while side two has one, which seems odd to me. But one has to think about the fact, that Blue Note had the most filigrane Deep Groove, comparing to other companies. So sometimes it is hard to tell. But surely this “Headin South” has a deep grooved side one at least: http://cgi.ebay.com/Horace-Parlan-LP-Headin-South-BLUE-NOTE-MONO-DG-NY-/170580125926
But 4059 was the last originale pressing with DG, am I right?
By the way: Does anybody know, where I can find informations about the last DGs of labels like New Jazz or Pacific Jazz?
I’ve actually seen a lot of debate on whether the first pressing of “Headin’ South” is a one sided DG(like “Undercurrent” or no DG. I’ve seen it advertised in auctions both ways. Since it is at a point of label change(actually I guess it was a presser change) there is an argument that the one sided DG is the first. I was curious about this auction because of the review Copy stamp like Aaron said. In my mind it would make it more definitive that this is a first.
@Katharsis I’ll look through my collections today and see if I can find you any info on those two labels.
according with Blue Note rules,4060 (d byrd at the half note vol.1) begins the no deep groove era.
according with Blue Note exceptions,some numbers appear with deep groove on one or the other side.
4062 (h parlan headin’ south) exists in three different kinds:
side one deep groove only (as cited by katharsis);
side two deep groove only (I’ve got photos-this has review copy stamp on back cover)
and finally no deep groove on either side.
let me report a f cohen citation on this:
BLP 4062 has never been seen with a deep-groove on both sides
Please remember that during a short transition period, Playstilite used DG and non DG stampers simultaneously. So the distinction between DG one side or DG both sides is somewhat artificial, eventhough DG attracts premium prices.By the way, 4063 and 4064 were issued with DG both sides. Both records always fetch higher prices than their DG one side counterparts.
Michel,
Do you think that a promo or review record(assuming the stamp is not counterfeit) is a good indication of an original?
@kartharsis, my 8290 Jackie McLean “Steeplechase” and 8294 Bob Brookmeyer “Revelations!” are both DG. These are the two latest I have in the New Jazz series. My copy of Mobley’s 52nd st theme(a reissue of Mobley’s 1st Message) is not DG. This is a Status(Prestige’s budget label) but they continued the New Jazz numbers. This is 8311.
I’m less confident on the Pac Jazz but everyone I have that is not a World Jazz(meaning post sale) is a DG. I only have 17 though. I think when they where re-issued post World Jazz they had a World Jazz label. Don’t know about the DG situation as none of mine are DG(only have 5).
@Mike: Thank you. I was wondering, because I have 8283 Walt Dickerson’s “To my queen” which has no DG, but otherwise appears to be original. By checking the internet I haven’t seen any DG copies. Considering Pacific Jazz, I have Roy Haynes’ “People” (PJ82) in mind, which I have as a non-DG pressing. As for World Pacific I can remember records of Chico Hamilton being DG.
And as for review copies I somewhere have read, that these usually were original pressings.
Interesting, I was thinking that all of the 8200 New Jazz was probably Deep Groove. I’ve been looking for a nice copy of “To My Queen” for a while(some reason doesn’t come up very often on Ebay) and I’ve passed it up due to seeing them as no DG. I covet it due to the Andrew Hill appearance as well as loving Walt.
I gladly found a nice copy in a NY record store. I’ve checked popsike as well and they don’t list DG pressings. And there are only three copies which is nice, hence it is not an inflated but called rare record. And Dickerson is a wonderful vibes player and the pairing with Hill carries out his avantgardish side. But his usual partner of that time, Austin Crowe is enjoyable, too.
Can you tell me the Van Gelder stampers on your pressings?
Tomorrow I can, I’m not at my house anymore. When I sit down tomorrow I’ll check it all out.
Thank you in advance!
Mike : yes, i think “review copies” are often very first copies.
Regarding “to my queen”, i don’t think it was issued with a DG. I would say that the last New Jazz with a DG was “Asia Minor”, but i’m not sure. Will check my New Jazz albumstomorrow !!
@katharsis I checked the stamps and it is the “VAN GELDER” stamp. I think this jives with the year that these were released(around 63ish). I also checked Art Farmer’s “Evening in Casablanca” that I have in a box in a closet(picked up at a garage sale, plays horribly). It is not a DG and has the “VAN GELDER” stamp.
I’ve always been skeptical of Promo, Review, etc.. stamps, just because I think they are easy to forge. I like how Atlantic has the white labels. I don’t own any though. I own some white label Frank Zappa promos that are unbelievable. Other than that, I have a few promos but never was willing to pay a high price for them.
Thank you very much for checking, Mike. My “To my Queen” has the “VAN GELDER” stamp as well, which is another proof of being original.
Jazzland and Candid have had white Promo-labels as well. The funny thing is, that a lot of buyers really hunt down the audition or review copies – while they are first pressings – and leave the white labels aside. Funny thing I think.
@Mike : in Rock albums promo editions are always more sought after thant regular copies. It is not the case in jazz albums, so there is no real interest to make “faux” promo albums, as it happens often in rock collecting.
Thanks Michel, what do you make of “DJ Copy” stamps. These worry me sometimes as they may have had heavy play. I have a few which sound fine though but I would never pay a premium for one.
DJ copies (factory stamped or not) are often in bad condition, full of writing on front and back cover (timings, etc). I would stay away from them. Anyway, i have some.
Interesting discussion on the DG versus non-DG issue @ Blue Note and Prestige. As Michel mentioned, at Blue Note the transition from DG to non-DG pressing material took place in a fairly long period where DG stampers were phased out slowly (and non-DG pased in).
Hence there is no sharp transition point and for Blue Note titles between 4054 and 4074 the answer to the question whether the first pressing should be DG both sides, DG one side, or non-DG is not allways easy to give.
For instance, Larry Cohn told me his test pressing of Kenny Drew 4059 is DG both sides. However, the first “regular” pressing is believed to have DG on side 2 only.
Some more examples: the first pressing of Donald Byrd 4060 has DG on both sides, while 4061 (same title Vol. 2) does not exist DG both sides. However this makes sense as 4061 was released much later than 4060.
Another example: my copy of Kenny Dorham 4063 is both sides non-DG and was obviously bought by the first owner shortly after it was released (he wrote down the date). It could be a first pressing though, however I know DG copies of this title do exist.
Lou Donaldson Here ’tis (4066)only seems to exist non-DG. I often see it with mixed labels (one side NY, the other side 63rd) but have never seen DG copies.
The next title, Jackie McLean Bluesnik (4067) should have 63rd St, DG-labels (both sides) to be a first pressing.
The conclusion is IMO that during this transition period the DG versus non-DG issue needs a case by case approach.
Yes Peter, the case by case approach is the best way to evaluate. The Kenny Dorham 4063 exists with DG both sides (i have a copy) ; anyway, it is not a first pressing compared to the non DG. Just pressed at the same time with an old stamper.
Thank you for these very interesting posts. When it comes to Blues Notes I’ll never stop learning!
Michel: my 4063 is non DG both sides. Should I conclude that it is a first pressing??
Yes Rudolph. If you have the “P” playstilite and RVG, in the dead wax, of course. This 4063 has been issued DG and non DG at the same time. Anyway, the DG version is very uncommon, and sought after. But besides this pure marketinting story, non DG 4063 should be considedred as first same as DG
It should be possible to create a clear Blue Note time line (like you sometimes find them in history books) depicting important moments in the Blue Note history; i.e. transitions from 78rpm shellac to vinyl 10″ to 12″ records, from Lexington Ave, to 47 West 63rd to (if I’m correct) 43 West 61st St., New York 23, to New York USA, to different address labels on A- and B sides; remarks about the deep groove, the transition to one side deep groove pressings to non deep groove to hand carved RVG in the trail off groove, to machine stamped RVG with our without stereo to small machine stamped Van Gelder, etc etc. With each important moment in time, one can add specific catalogue numbers from which moment on certain combinations in labelling, addresses, deep grooves, trail off carvings/stamps no longer exist and of course also covering things like laminated, non laminated, the kakubuchi subject etc etc. If only I had enough knowledge, then I would do it in a heartbeat. Maybe if we collectively put our efforts together and simply use the comment field to one by one add the things that we know for sure, I’ll be able to create a simple but clear time line for everyone to look at. Or has this been done before?? One thing is for sure: looking at a time line usually makes things clear immediately, while simply reading plain text about it can sometimes be confusing if you lose track of what you’re actually reading if there are a lot of details to pay attention to. 😉
I think that is a great idea. We probably have enough examples among the participants here to map that out.
Another idea I would offer is to get a handle on the pressing run sizes. I bet collectively we could determine how large various pressings were just based on the number of copies each of us have or have physically seen.
Maybe we can group these into very low (e.g., less than 1,000), low (1,000 – 5,000), medium (5,000 – 20,000), high (20,000 -40,000) and very high (any jimmy smith/horace silver/midnight blue). These are just examples. I have no idea what the correct groups are. I am sure you guys have a better sense than me.
that’s a great idea:read somewhere in Jazz Collector that Larry is doin’/ultimatin’ this effort,and that will be published once finished.I’m shure most of us have their personal private small secrets ’bout BN and if we read ALL of JC we can trace down many useful info,many-not all.I’m on my way in finishing reading.started in august and I’m almost through.
we need the super experts help,anyway.
if Al should like to establish this alternate way of exploring BN secrets I’ll be glad to share my info with you.
no book seems to exist but I can’t read japanese…so nobody knows.
years ago I asked a well known italian seller why not doin’ such a guide:answer:it would be nice for buyers,much less for sellers !
in our community we have collectors,sellers,love and passion,rookies and old oaks,thrilling adventures,surprises and delusions.
once again,glad to be part of it.
wellcome back to Rudolf,one of the most important sources for info.
he disappeared 2 weeks ago:back at last.
I imagined him on a Caribean island with tons of Mp3 hard bop music with him.
I tried creating something on the lines of Mattymans suggestion a few months ago.Not exactly the same but similar principle. Screencap up here on my Flickr BN Collectors blog
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19121992@N00/5277619842/
This tracks label changes against the BN catalogue listing, created in Excel. The timebars are for label address, presence of ear, and use of DG dies for first press. Simplistic maybe, but had to start somewhere.
The problem I found with the timeline idea – which I wanted to create initially – was I could not find a release date schedule for Blue Notes, only a “date recorded” which is the principle underlying database date component.
If anyone knows where to find original release year, one do tell!