Watching Some Stereo Jazz Vinyl Sell (and Not Sell)
I was just going through some old listings as I attempt to clean up my files so I can (finally) update the Jazz Collector Price Guide and noticed that eBay took the liberty of erasing all of my files that were more than six weeks old. This is a new thing they have done and I’d rather they didn’t, but I wasn’t given a choice. Anyway. Before they disappear into oblivion here are some items I had saved with the idea of either writing about them or adding them to the Price Guide:
Johnny Griffin, Studio Jazz Party, Riverside 9338. This was an original stereo pressing with the deep grooves and black label. The seller had a start price of $150 for this record, which was in VG++ condition and probably VG+ for the vinyl. I was watching it to see if it would sell and at what price. The mono pressings tend to be much more desired and desirable, right? This one did not sell. A mono pressing in that condition, at that start price likely would have sold. I always liked this record — it has the real feel of a party. Along the same lines and from the same seller was a stereo pressing of Johnny Griffin, The Little Giant, Riverside 1149. This one was in VG++ condition for the record and VG+ for the cover and it too had a start price of $150. Alas, there were also no bidders for this one.
This was a stereo pressing that did sell, and for a decent price:
Horace Silver, The Tokyo Blues, Blue Note 84110. This was an original stereo pressing with the New York USA labels and the RVG in the dead wax. It was listed in M- condition for the record and the cover. It sold for $125.
I always thought that the turning point for stereo vs. mono lay around 1960, i.e. post 1960 stereo records having a bigger value than mono copies, whereas for ante 1960 stereo it was the contrary.
The reason being that the stereo process had got adult by 1960 and produced valuable results.
In my view the albums did not sell because the entry price was too high.
Re the Silver album, I have the impression that there is not much collectors’ interest for Silver in general. There are too many around? Can somebody give me an explanation?
Rudolf — as I watch eBay prices over the past few years, I’m seeing a lot more collector’s interest in Horace Silver. I think there are a few reasons: 1. The music is consistently great; 2. Original Blue Notes are, well, original Blue Notes; 3. While there have been many around at one point, I guess he was one of the more popular artists on Blue Note and they pressed more of his records, the supply is certainly dwindling compared to the demand. I doubt we’ll see a Horace Silver Blue Note that would reach the value of one of the rare Mobleys, but I think the value will continue to rise. There’s something about holding that precious original Blue Note in your hand. Oh, I did mention that the music is great, right?
That Jazz Party record got relisted a few times for less and less and sold last week for $50. A deal, I’d say.
Here is an excerpt from one of many conversations with Larry Cohn, noted collector & collaborator on JRC’s Blue Note Records – A Guild For Identifying Original Pressings on the subject of stereo pressings that seems relevant here:
“…The stereos were not created until 1959. Very few titles were reissued in stereo at first, notably ST-4003 and ST-1595. My research on stereo is that BN consistently pressed far fewer disks in stereo than in mono virtually throughout its history –that is through 1965 (BN really ceased to exist in 1966 –it was a Liberty subsidiary then and I treat the records quite differently, especially since all pressings were done at Liberty plants –no P in the runoff). Near the end the popularity of certain titles, notably Song for My Father, A New Perspective and The Sidewinder, resulted in larger stereo runs for those titles, but the predominance of stereo did not occur until after the death of indie BN, i.e., after Liberty took over and in fact early in 1968 eliminated mono pressings entirely (leading to the reissue of so many titles either in fake electronic stereo (81500 series) or issuance of many of the 4000 series titles as 84000 numbers with previously unused stereo tapes that had been sitting on the shelf.” (-Thanks again for all your insights Larry !)
Generally speaking, we are all very well aware that the demand for original stereo pressings is far less than original mono pressings by collectors, thus the widespread variation in selling prices. As for Horace, I see his LP’s in a similar light as other artists such as Jimmy Smith in terms of available inventory and collectability. Don’t get me wrong, I love them both as artists, and would never turn down an opportunity to pick up copies of their original LP’s for my collection, but they just aren’t in the same league as some of the other BN artists, like Sonny Clark or Hank Mobley from a collector standpoint.
Unfortunately when it comes to selling prices these days, it seems to be more about the rarity, current market demand or condition, and less about the music on the LP itself… Personally, I have always approached collecting in terms of buying only what I love first and foremost. Condition and rarity is often secondary… Perhaps similar to that of buying wines… After all, we have to ask ourselves what is the point of buying something if you know you probably won’t enjoy drinking it, or in this case listening to it. Am I right Rudolf ?
Re: Griffin’s “Little Giant,” I have a Mono Jazzland of this great record. I’ve heard that the Riverside (either mono or stereo) sounds better than what I have. Would be curious as to any elaboration on that point.
I was wondering if anyone knows how long the Plastylite factory continued to stamp “P” in the trail-off on other labels for which it pressed albums.
Some of the supposed Liberty pressed albums in my collection which have the New York Inc. address appear to be of the same thickness and quality as the ones with the P on them. In addition, the vinyl itself appears thicker than albums pressed on Liberty during ’66-’67.
Also, with regard to stereo/mono, I believe that all Blue Note albums were recorded in stereo after 1959. The monos were all fold-downs, but to me they sound better. The mono pressings sound closer to what one would hear if they went to a jazz club. That is perhaps why collectors and jazz enthusiasts typically want to own them. The stereo pressings have greater separation of instruments, which is no doubt more pleasing to an audiophile.
@Bill
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“I was wondering if anyone knows how long the Plastylite factory continued to stamp “P” in the trail-off on other labels for which it pressed albums.”
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Some of the pre-UA Liberty pressings are just as good (or, IMHO, in some cases arguably better) quality pressings than Plastylite as I have certainly run across the occasional less-than-perfect Plastylite. A few of my NYC/Liberty pressings have the ‘I’ stamp indicating the RCA pressing plant in Richmond, Indiana which consistently put out high quality vinyl at least into the 70s.
United Artists on the other hand, consistently put out poor quality vinyl (I don’t know where they had their records pressed, however). You can see this same poor quality across the board on all UA labels such as post ’61 Verve and the MGM/UA and the United Artists label itself (on releases such as Bill Evans/Jim Hall – “Undercurrent”).
As for mono: Analog Productions, responding to criticism over their decision to release only stereo reissues of some titles, explains that all mono issues after October 30th, 1958 are, in fact, 50/50 fold downs of the stereo master tape.
http://goo.gl/uHgCV
@Rudolf
I was of the same opinion on mono/stereo record value but the market does not seem to follow this.
I’ve been chasing some original H Hancock records on BN recently and although all of them are post ’60, the mono copies normally fetch double if not triple price of stereo…
@Bill
I’d have to disagree with your theory on hearing “mono” like a live jazz club. The human ears are picking things up in Stereo. So how is mono going to recreate a live situation?
don-lucky: I bought many records with the intent to listen to them. The reality proved to be different. I sold many of them without ever having put them on the turntable.
With my wine buying, it is slightly different. Even the lesser ones got consumed.
Horace Silver titles were produced abundantly and in large numbers. So they are less collectible.
@Artie,
What I mean by mono as sounding more representative of live jazz is that if one goes to a jazz club such as Birdland or the Village Vanguard, the musicians stand relatively close together on the stage. One does not hear the trumpet coming from one side of the room and the drums or piano from another. What I am essentially getting at is that listening to jazz at a club in the 1950s and 1960s was not the same experience as listening to a Haydn symphony in an expansive concert hall. YMMV, of course.
felixstrange,
I’m not sure what you mean by “You can see this same poor quality across the board on all UA labels such as…the United Artists label itself (on releases such as Bill Evans/Jim Hall – “Undercurrent”).” as the original pressings of Undercurrent were done by Plastylite evidenced by the “P” in the deadwax.
@Aaron
My stereo copy with the original UA label is not a Plastylite pressing. I was not aware that the original stereo was pressed by Plastylite. If that is the case, then I suppose my pressing must not be from the first run.
I do have a mono pressing with a ‘P’ (which, incidentally, is not a particularly high-quality pressing either).
Regardless, the point I was making is that there is a significant quality difference between original Liberty pressings and Liberty pressings after UA acquired them and that most UA pressings, in my experience, tend to be of dubious quality.
Reading many comments about the Plastylite Company: They all just mention that Plastylite did the pressings, whether for Blue Note, Prestige or whoever.
Does anyone know anything about the Plastylite Company ITSELF? Where was it located? Did they only press records or were they in the general plastic business?
I cannot find ANY information on them at all—ZERO.
Info printed on test pressing labels:
Plastylite Corporation
333 North Drive
North Plainfield, N.J.