What is Happening to the Rare Jazz Vinyl Market?
I first started doing Jazz Collector as a newsletter/web site back in 2004 and moved over to the blog format in 2008. Back then, I used to pore through eBay every single day, looking at the complete jazz listings for every 24 hours so I could not only spot the big-ticket items, but also to identify potential bargains. I was really into it then, because I was selling records and, more often, buying records. At some point, however, my real work started accumulating, I bought two major collections to fill out my own collection, the prices on eBay soared into the stratosphere, and the idea of looking at 24 hours of eBay all day and every day became more of a nuisance than a pleasure. It did change the dynamics of Jazz Collector a bit, because I still wanted to write about the market and identify rare records, but I started doing searches based on price, as in the highest priced records.
And that’s what I’ve been doing for many years now. I’m sure most of you noticed, particularly long-time readers such as Rudolf. Which is a long way of getting to this point: As I’ve been doing these searches recently, I’ve been finding that the sellers are asking for higher prices consistently, and the buyers are becoming less interested. I just went on to eBay for the first time in a few weeks and most of the records I looked at had high asking prices and zero bidders. It feels like the market is changing right before our eyes. In any case, rather than focus on records that are not getting bids, let’s start with a couple that are:
Hank Mobley Quintet, Blue Note 1550. This looks to be an original New York 23 pressing. The cover is listed as VG+, but the vinyl looks to be probably VG- or worse. Bidding is in the $230 range, with less than two days left on the auction.
Walter Bishop Jr., Speak Low, Jazztime 002. The listing is very sketchy. I can’t see if it is an original pressing. The grading is VG+ for the record and cover, but there is no description. Still, the bidding is in the $230 range with four days left on the auction.
Now here are some rare jazz records that don’t have bids:
J.R. Monterose, Blue Note 1536. This looks like an original Lexington Avenue pressing, but I’m not sure about the cover, if it is frame or not. The record and cover looked to be in VG+ condition, based on the seller’s grading, but the cover have issues. The start price is about $800 and the auction will likely be closed by the time most of you read this.
Clifford Brown Memorial Album, Blue Note 1526. This looks to be an original Lexington Avenue pressing. The record is listed in VG condition and the cover is VG+. The start price is about $500.
By the way, I just posted a new edition of my podcast, from August 20. It is focused on “live” jazz performances and I think it’s a lot of fun. I have a new radio show coming up tonight, focused on the John Coltrane album Ballads as played by Trane and as sung by Karrin Allyson. If you want to listen live, it is at 8 p.m. Eastern tonight at WTBR-FM Pittsfield. When you get to the site just click “Listen.” I appreciate the feedback I’ve received so far on the podcasts and I’m always hungry for more.
The Monterose BLP 1536 doesn’t have deep grooves, thus not a 1st pressing.
Yes, Fredrik. I couldn’t tell from the picture, but now that I look at the listing again it clearly states that it is a later pressing. So the seller knows it’s a later pressing and is still seeking $800.
I collect original jazz albums mostly because I favor the sound of first pressings such as Blue Note and Prestige. It’s also partly the feeling of holding “the original” which just had that special vibe that a reissue does not possess. That said – I’m lucky my record collection is not my retirement nest egg and it won’t kill me if I don’t get what I paid for every record I bought back if and when I sell them.
I’m not entirely confident the market will hold; jazz is a niche market in terms of music and even moreso in terms of collectors who seek out originals. I can see it just on the eBay watch numbers on big ticket items. It seems most of the sought after records on eBay have about 75-100 watchers. A good chunk of that number is probably people who are just curious what the record sells for and people who are looking for a potential bargain.
My question is how many collectors are out there that are willing to spend “x” amount of dollars on an original “soul station” before everyone that wants one has one? I would imagine the price has to eventually drop.
Of course I could be completely wrong…
We’re seeing the commodification of what used to be a fun hobby and a passion. It’s all about return on investment. Sellers are afraid to let bidders determine prices, for fear of not realizing anticipated value. Rather than risk selling at a fair price set by bidders, the records remain unsold in the hope that they will bring bigger numbers someday soon. It’s the same type of mentality that led to the creation of the godawful discogs marketplace. Discogs, Youtube and Instagram have turned our precious first pressings into portfolio holdings.
Paul : its true. On discogs you can frequently see 7 or 10 copies of the same record, listed at, say, all around 150 Euros. All waiting for a customer…
Hard to assume its rare on in demand record !
I also think the current state of the market has not helped determining a “market clearing price” for a record. I have been chasing a local collection with 10-15 of what we would call collectibles. The rest of the 200 records are fairly common jazz that many of us probably already have. I have continued to offer the seller what we would consider to be fair prices given the rarity and condition. The seller continues to come back with top-end eBay/Discogs counter prices. I have given up chasing these as we will never find common ground. I don’t begrudge someone seeking good money for their items, but at this rate, no one rational will buy these.
yeah, Discogs is weird. I use it to de-dupe and try to price everything lower than other copies but still, sometimes obscure records just sit, no matter how great they are. The bottom will fall out on this endeavor, I’m convinced, though like any other collectible market, some stuff will remain high.
Blue Note 1536 is a rare record indeed, and a copy in EX or above will cost you a pretty Penney, hence the seller trying to sale a second press with a starting bid of $800. one could always trying and get lucky on a 1st pressing in better condition, from our good fried Carolinasoul. But we all know this record will go for a lot more than $800 bucks.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/314794093281?hash=item494b30aae1%3Ag%3AOHwAAOSwukZk6Q1d&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336393618&customid=&toolid=10049
Interesting commentary Mr. A. Somewhat a matter of economics, supply and demand. At least to what passes for my mind these days. In a way, I’m glad to have shed the record collector mantle. There seems to be so many mouths on the sandwich these days, all trying to get a bite. And what with re-issues and reprints and what not, the flooding of , to me, what seems to be the same old lps, whether on Blue Note or whatever Note. How many versions of the same Lou Donaldson/Jimmy Smith/Charlie Parker/Bill Evans recording is needed?
Any limited item can become desirable. I give major respect to all those hip chicks and cats who bought these Jazz records when they came out, when they were released. Those people made this collecting frenzy of original pressings possible. I used to wonder when I was buying/selling/searching for records, who was the first to spin this lp? For a fact, all we do is hold on to records for a while and then they go elsewhere, to a trash bin , to someone else, to oblivion.
Anyway, just some thoughts from someone who no longer has any skin in the game.
Very interesting discussion. I would like to have some comments on the following;
“Rare doesn’t always mean valuable ” also I would love to know what records you thought would be very desirable but just don’t bring the big $$$ or the ones you bought for investment turned out to be a dud money wise.
Lenni – I have an old friend who did buy these records when they came out. He wrote his name and date of purchase on the back of many of them. I’ve bought a few from him and it’s always cool, for example, to pull out his old copy of “Mobleys message” and see his name and “Montreal, 1957” on the back!
As someone who sells pretty regularly I haven’t noticed too much of a decline. Especially if the condition is right. Maybe it was just summer doldrums.
Back in the day, there were boatloads of rare and valuable jazz records that were not Blue Note, Prestige and Riverside. The collective memory for these records seems to be fading. Credit also to the herd mentality reinforced by social media.
While the gang here all make spot-on points, let’s also not forget the ever-popular “macroeconomic conditions”! The U.S. is still working its way out of (or heading into, depending on whom you ask) a recession. Gas prices are up. Interest rates are high. We’ve got new political drama every day, and a presidential election next year. I’m not surprised that people are hesitant to be throwing around big money at records right now.
I’ve been trying to organize my thoughts on this to post a response, but I have had mixed feelings on this for so long that my brain is gong a few directions at once. I believe that COVID plays a role in demand. The pent-up anxiety of the pandemic, along with lockdown, drove people to spend more on “things.” I believe we are still in the hangover of the pandemic so the spending on “things” continues. We also seem to be in a vinyl resurgence of sorts. I’m not sure how the resurgence is driving demand other than bring new people into the vinyl market. I don’t know if demand for some used jazz vinyl is newbies spending more on lesser condition copies, or old farts last grasp at greatness, or something else entirely. In any case, more people equals more demand for a fairly limited commodity. This brings up a related point: record collecting is going through a period of increased commodification. Records have been a commodity for some time (Henry Rollins wrote about his distaste for the commodification of music the some years ago), but the trend seems to have increased dramatically in the last few years. One might argue that eBay and Discogs have accelerated this process. There is certainly a range of opinions on this topic from this site’s readers, at least based on older comments. Regardless of those opinions, however, the market has changed. A correction to the used jazz record market may be coming, but both listening collectors and commodity collectors will still pay good (read: high) prices for the best condition, most desirable (and sometime rarest – rarest and most desirable are not the same) titles. I’m guessing that some lesser condition copies will continue to increase in price relative to the best copies, possibly even faster than the prices of the top copies do. I also expect that some of the titles that previously were ignored by collectors of hard bop/post bop (i.e., late period Prestige, Black Jazz, Perception, Muse, etc.) will rise faster any Blue Note title in the period ’55-’67. I’m sticking with EX condition or better. There are enough titles out there that are great listening that I have yet to acquire so that I don’t need to suffer the clicks and pops of outrageous condition (apologies to Shakespeare) just to have something desirable, but with a marked-up playing surface.
I yield the soapbox.
Good points. I think the older guard have called it a day. It’s younger collectors who shape the market now, but without the benefit of hindsight.
I have no problem with high prices, or increasing prices. What bothers me is the loss of auction integrity. In the past, knowledgeable bidders determined the value of a given record at a particular time. Without that the hobby will continue to decline. Records will become trophies to be displayed alongside our taxidermied safari kills.
Chiming in for the “mid-timers”, those of us who started collecting in the 80s and early 90s. A lot of us were introduced to jazz music by way of sample-based hip-hop from that era, and started out collecting soul jazz, fusion and funk. I know in the Bay Area that independent jazz shop owners were more than happy to offload that stock. But a lot of us formed relationships with those owners (Tom Madden at the Jazz Quarter, Berigan Taylor at Berigan’s, Rick Clay at the Groove Yard) and we started asking questions, listening, learning and buying. I guess my point is that for a lot of the demographic that wasn’t alive to buy the originals in the 50s and 60s, we came to collecting jazz by a different path, but it was always driven by a love of the music. I wonder what draws younger buyers of today to collecting jazz vinyl? What musical path brought them to jazz, or is it really driven by social media, an attraction to things that are “retro” or (like a lot of commenters have cited) pure trophy hunting. If it’s the latter, that’s too bad. In my opinion, that would signal jazz vinyl’s trajectory down the “rare wine” path, where collectors spend ludicrous sums of money on grand cru Burgundy only to showcase the bottles and never pull the corks to “appreciate and share the music” with those in their lives who matter.
Aloha Paul, I agree with you. If in the past I couldn’t find a copy from my local record store, I enjoyed looking at eBay for it and had to make up my mind what “my market” was for said copy and bid accordingly. I was so impressed with Al allowing Carolina Soul to do a consignment of so many of his records and allow it to run it’s auction course. One doesn’t always know how it’s going to turn out but that’s part of the fun/interest. I thought Al did well and he commented as such, saying it was a very good experience. I know when I see certain records listed at high fixed prices I usually pass them up, especially those with no “best offer” option. I’m told a lot of the “new generation” doesn’t have patience for the auction format, they want instant gratification. Not all but many and they don’t see the history, beauty or magic of this music rather just the $$$ signs. Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy for good sellers that still do auctions and get higher prices for their listings. Anyhow I rambling now, LOL! I hope more eBay members that are good at auctions, like Carolina Soul, offer consignment services so as to encourage those with vinyl that there is a way to help them move/sell. Mahalo!
Many good points here. As being a semi-old fart (55yo) and has collected since 2006 I have seen the market shift somehow. Some things I’ve thought would happen and I got wrong was the reissue market and how that would affect the OG market. I kind of thought that the Reissue market would lessen the prices for the OG’s – but it seems to be the other way around. If a previously rare title is reissued it just seems to peak more interest in the OG’s. It is noted on the market so to speak. An example would be Black Jazz titles, Strata East and Tone Poet MM reissues. Funnily also the reissues in themselves are getting collectible and quite dear.
As someone new to the world of record collecting this is an interesting topic. I have been lucky to be given my dad’s records. This is about 500 jazz records bought in the early to mid 60s. He has not had a record player for about 40 years but made sure they were stored safely so most are in good condition. Initially I thought I would hold on to a few and sell most but so far I have just enjoyed listening to them. Since I have no $$ invested in these I think it helps as if I had just dropped $800 on a Hank Mobley I would probably want to preserve it more than just listen to it. The more I have explored the collection the less likely I can see selling them. Especially since he labeled the first 100 with numbers so literally I can trace his buying journey and be listening to them nearly 60 years after he first bought them. It has also given us plenty to talk about and there have been many cool stories. Love the site and the discussions – Joel
As a serious seller of records and jazz on Ebay I think it may be important to look at sellers perspective.
My cost for acquiring jazz records has grown exponentially over past 20 years.
Collectors looking to sell collections are quoting Discogs and Popsike prices as staring point in negotiations.
Tough to auction records at low starting bid with so much cost involved.
I see some comments are “scrubbed”. So much for free speech and expression…
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Aloha Paul R, I hear you as well. Maybe offer you perspective clients consignment? I know you aren’t Carolina Soul but that could be a win win for you and them. I helped out a family with a parents collection. They knew how much I love this music plus volunteering at a senior citizen center, so I’m very aware of all they were dealing with. They probably wished I could take a large portion but I couldn’t and I wanted them to keep some of the records to remember their loved one. So I helped, informed them of many of their collection, explained how to pack and ship and they sold what they put aside. Probably would have loved working with you, again on consignment. For me, they were very kind and let me purchase about a dozen albums at a very fair price. Yes they looked at Discogs. And for those wondering, I didn’t take/request the best, most valuable ones and they had original Blue Notes, Prestige, Riverside, Contemporary, Mercury and so forth. They had bills to pay. Anyhow, sorry for my rambling, my point is, there are other ways to acquire and/or sell records. If you have a strong ebay account and good following, consignment might be an option. Good luck. Mahalo.
Of course when a seller seeks to sell his collection en masse, or is asked to sell his collection, his asking price will be ‘retail value’, whatever that is. If professional sellers instead adhered to a consignment model, the entire system would be rejuvenated.
Aloha Paul, absolutely. I was so encouraged after Al decided to move a portion of his collection and share with us his experience. He chose consignment and was very pleased by the results. That tells us auction style listings still are a favorable path to move records and it’s worth it to pay someone like a Carolina Soul, who has a “brand-name” to do the work for a potential seller. I believe in competition and would love to see another couple “CS’s” start up or existing sellers move to the consignment model. Obviously it works as CS has cornered a portion of the market. As you said, just might jump start the market again! Plus it would be great for Al to report on rare/original lps from many sellers starting at $8-10.00/ea and seeing where they end! Mahalo!
Way back in the day eBay would charge sellers for listings and charge more for listings with higher starting prices. This may have led to the low stating prices we became used to. They also changed their model to a preference for Buy It Now rather than auction to “compete” with Amazon.
Hey Kyle, enjoy experiencing your enthusiasm as displayed in your posts.
Wanted to inquire if you and yours are okay out there in the 50th state after the fires and such.
Aloha lennib, thank you for asking. My uncle originally from Maui, on Oahu now, still has quite a bit of family there. There’s one cousin he was trying to track down and we’re hoping and praying he’s in a shelter as many didn’t have phone service or other ways to contact loved ones. We’re hoping for the best as are all folks in rebuilding and coming back stronger. Mahalo
Carolina Soul has an excellent reputation in the field, and is able to achieve relatively high sale prices because of their reputation. There are others that also offer consignments, including Jazz Record Center and ebay seller “Funky-O”. What are their consignment charges ?
I understand a seller’s desire to receive the most value from their sale. It is easy to quote the book or ebay. But most sellers do not understand the costs that are involved in securing the highest value. I have been able to negotiate with these types of sellers by politely pointing out basic facts and asking questions. All Ebay sales proceeds will be reduced by at least 20% because of Ebay fees, payment fees and sales taxes that will be deducted from the sale. Thus I automatically reduce their offer price by 20%. I then ask if they have any experience is selling LPs to a high end buyer on Ebay, and who do you think gets a higher price for selling a Rolex watch- a certified dealer, or someone who has never sold watches before ? I then ask detailed questions about the pressing minutia of several of LPs, and then who do you think gets a higher price for this record, someone who knows why pressing details are important, or someone who does not. My final question is to ask how much time they have- and point out that it takes about 30min per LP to correctly photograph an LP, create a detailed description, list the LP, then pack and ship the LP upon sale. Multiply 30min by however many LPs will be listed for sale. Sellers are usually amenable to a reasonable deal after having this conversation.
As for the state of the market, there is an old saying- nature abhors a vacuum. I think there are a lot of new buyers with limited experience. They want to participate, but can not afford to at the high end, so they purchase what they can afford. This means new reissues, grey market pressings, and later pressings of desirable titles. In this context, a buyer priced out of the market will seek the next best alternative meaning that “lessor” titles, 2nd-3rd tier labels, and good sounding reissues will continue to appreciate. Example- 80s-90’s era OJC titles (300+) are now $25-$50 pressings. They were $10 pressings pre covid. Being able to eventually afford a better copy becomes aspirational, and part of a new buyer’s evolution in this hobby. I don’t think the market will continue it’s stratospheric rise, but I do not see a collapse either. I suspect the market will plateau in general, and desirable titles will continue to appreciate at a more modest rate.
Kyle- I will make prayer for your relatives on Maui
Aloha lennib, Mahalo Nui Loa for your thoughts and prayers. We’re hoping for the best.
One more comment on this thread. During the past month I have been hit with 5 no pays. In the past I would have 5 non payers in a YEAR. There is no consequence for a non payer but in the past a buyer would pay as a matter of course. One of these guys is a record store owner. The world is changing.