Will There Be A New Normal in Jazz Collecting?
I haven’t really been on eBay since the pandemic started and I’m wondering: Could this be a seminal event for jazz collecting? With the world economy in collapse, will people still care about whether their copy of Sonny’s Crib has a New York 23 label or not? And, assuming some will care, will enough collectors care enough to keep laying out the big bucks for original copies, thus extending the rising market for certain collectibles that we have witnessed since we started writing this blog back in 2003? The other thing I’m wondering: Will collectors continue to trust shipments from overseas, wherever they live? If you are in England, say, will you have faith that a package from New York won’t be carrying the Covid-19 virus across the Atlantic? It may sound crazy, but crazy things are happening. I go food shopping, come home and The Lovely Mrs. JC wipes down every package with disinfectant and then asks me to strip before I take a step into the house. You’ve seen my picture in the last post: It is not my body she is after.
I pose these questions in advance of looking at eBay, which I will do in a moment. I’m very curious to hear your opinions. Mine is that this will have to have an impact on the jazz collectibles market – certainly over the short term and perhaps permanently as well. With so many people out of work and suffering around the world, the somewhat arcane and mundane minutia that come to have define our hobby over the years feels trivial, to me at least. Yes, music can be a comfort and joy and diversion, as can the hobby of collecting. But, with the world in the throes of major transformation, you have to wonder if, how and when priorities will change. Or, perhaps they won’t. They didn’t during the last economic crisis, but I fear that one will pale in comparison to what is coming.
OK, I am now on eBay, doing a search of the highest priced jazz records for auction now. It is a common search I do. The first thing I notice is that there are fewer high-quality records for sale, period. Second, on the entire first page of this search there are only two records that have any bids at all. They are a signed copy of a record I never heard of, Machine Gun by the Peter Brotzmann Octet for $540, and a clean black label stereo pressing of Bill Evans Waltz for Debby for about $200. On the next page of 25 listings there is some action for a couple of Blue Notes, including Basra by Pete LaRoca and Speak No Evil by Wayne Shorter.
I do this particular search all the time in writing posts for Jazz Collector and this is about as light as I’ve seen the action. If you’re a buyer this is probably a good time to buy. If you’re a seller, you might be staying away, holding onto inventory and hoping that the market will return to what had been, for years, a sense of normalcy. But, I repeat the questions I asked above in a different framework: Will there be a new normal and has it begun already?
Interesting question Al. If the stock market is any indication (it often is), then better days are ahead. But the record market is always changing, and current events will accelerate that. There will be a shakeout in the mid and lower tiers as regards condition. Vg and Vg+ prices will suffer. The NM and Ex+ records will be harder than ever to find, and will continue their upward trajectory. Accordingly, some of the newer jazz sellers will disappear, and the market will go back to being dominated by knowledgeable dedicated sellers, like Fred Cohen, as well as individuals selling their own collections.
The other elephant in the room (besides Covid) is discogs. In my opinion discogs has damaged the collectible record market, and will continue to do so, as people tire of paying high ebay and paypal fees.
That Brotzmann is worthwhile, rare, and a historic record. I would bid, but I found a nice copy on ebay a few years ago.
The Brötzmann is an amazing record — classic, if you will — alas, I’ve “suffered” for about 20 years with a later pressing on FMP. The BRÖ private edition still eludes me, but it’s gotten very expensive in the last year or two.
Right now the main issue for me in buying collectible records is just the post office and the lag — and if USPS really goes down the shitter, which it might, paying through the nose for FedEx, UPS, and DHL on even mid-price records is going to be a no-go. The record retail market in the US will be destroyed without USPS.
i second clifford’s comments on Brötzmann, though with the caveat that hard bop purists may want to stay away. it is some of the most umami-causing harsh free jazz. i endorse it highly.
i also second clifford comments regarding lag. I have two very expensive records in limbo right now, one from the UK and one from japan. I am hoping beyond hope that there is just a customs processing delay and that I will see them.
The current worldwide economic situation might shake the collecting market out a bit. Most countries are experiencing market and economic events not seen since perhaps 2008, and in some cases akin to the1929 depression.
Today U.S. retail reports indicated general retail sales plummeting, not unexpected, for who goes to stores other than a grocery store anymore. Furthermore this weeks U.S. unemployment report will probably show a further climb increasing the current 7.4 million unemployed. With projections of 20% unemployment rate soon in the States, expenditure on such as records and the like may be limited. Those with deep pockets may continue to purchase, the lack of available items may temper demand. And these economics may drive out those speculators who purchase in hope of fast profits.
Not to deny music helps one endure times that we are in, however matters may come to a point where physical possession of music no longer can be afforded by many.
Onto the Brotzmann lp, yes, it is a fine example of European Free Jazz and to me, along with Nipples, one of Brotzmann’s best. Nice to see this one so completely signed, yet, as does Clifford, I will have to suffer with an FMP label copy.
I’m not worried about receiving shipments. When a package arrives here, it goes straight to the office for three days until I open it. If I can’t wait, I’ll open it outside, dispose of the mailer and record out sleeves, and off they go into the trash. But unfortunately I haven’t gotten many new arrivals lately, because I pay for my vinyl habit with selling vinyl, and due to social distancing I have not been able to go dig and source new vinyl for sale, so I simply don’t have much for sale right now. It sucks, but I know it’s temporary, and a lot of my regular buyers are cutting back right now anyway because they either have lost their jobs or are more careful with their spending. How and when things will go back to normal, I don’t know, but if the fairly healthy demand for jazz vinyl on eBay and Discogs is any indication, I don’t see how Covid-19 will change the jazz vinyl trade in any way.
If anything, people are spending much more time at home, so demand should increase.
For what it’s worth, the same metalwork and mastering are present on the FMP and BRO pressings of Machine Gun. The only real difference is the thin, top-loading silkscreen cover, which is obviously beautiful and “first” but the FMP is sonically no different. My FMP copy has BRO-2 identification in the deadwax through and through.
I’ll be on furlough starting Monday, as will all my staff, for the foreseeable future. It sucks, though at least we will be collecting unemployment and a CAREs stimulus payment for a while, which will put us at nearly what take-home pay was anyway. That said, I will have to be judicious with my fun spend for quite a while. It’s been interesting digging into the record and CD archives to find albums I have not played in many, many years.
I know it’s not really possible to do right now, but I think everybody should save their $$$ and then when it’s possible support your local record store. A lot has been taken away from all of us, thank God we still have our ears to enjoy the jazz which remains in our hearts…
That’s pretty cool to see that copy of Machine Gun signed by all the members; certainly that is adding to the value of this album. I sold my BRO copy of “for adolphe sax” recently and could only get $350 for it. As for Machine Gun I sold my first FMP press too recently; it’s a monumental album but I hardly if ever listen to it these days..and when I do I have the CD with bonus takes.
It’s hard to predict what the impact of covid19 will be on the record market. I think that low end stuff will suffer and those high end items will always have a few rich customers who will still pay well.
For Paul – would you elaborate a bit on how Discogs has hurt the collectibles market? Do others agree?
I’ve been selling a particular collection on eBay for the last three months. I have noticed an uptick in “views” now that more people are browsing during the day, but the prices have been pretty much the same. Although I haven’t listed many top tier pieces, I did list some original 4000 Blue Notes and got very good prices. However, recently I have had many more people not paying for their records. Right now I have 4 who haven’t paid, including people who accumulated multiple wins over more than a week. My take away is people are getting hit harder than expected. This may last, but it may pass.
anything collectible faces fluctuations in market demand…this is true across all items from records, to navajo rugs, to random other stuff…economic downturns do have some affect on the fluctuations in the market…
I just look at collecting records as a journey and finding records has changed already with more and more people trading records. This is due to the rise of social media platforms that connects more people with similar and like interests…
I’ve traded more records with people more over the last 3 years than I’ve purchased records…
I’ve noticed, over the last 30 days or so, that I’m winning more “make offer” bids on ebay than before. I wonder if the current virus situation makes some sellers have a ‘get what you can” mentality.
It feels like prices should come down, but I’m not sure what percentage of high end buyers are in the 5% or even 1%. If collecting is a rich man’s game then the most sought after titles in the best condition may not take much of a hit.
I’m also wondering if we’ll see some folks start to sell of their collection to make ends meet perhaps even flooding the market. Only time will tell.
Yeah, Art, good call. I have been buying online from some of my favorite locals.
I think that we are in for a rough ride economically for the foreseeable future; specifically, in an election year here in the states. 22 Million have filed for unemployment as of this email. My company’s business is down 50% and we are going to have to lay people off if this elusive stimulus package for small businesses does not come through in the next few weeks. Even that will only help folks through the end of June, so another package, or packages will be needed to get through this year.
I’ve pulled back on my buying and have just helped some of the local shops when they post some stuff on IG.
I have enjoyed spending some additional time with my collection.
I hope everyone remains healthy and gets through these difficult times.
-Tom
R.I.P.
Lee Konitz died 15.4.2020 at the age of 92.
One of the last giants is not with us anymore.
I heard him in concert in The Hague in 1958 with Zoot and in Groningen in 1965 with René Thomas.
My wife and I heard him at Keystone Korner in ‘71. A giant. His “Motion” on Verve is for the ages.
Yeah, was lucky to see him a few times in the last 20 years. A giant indeed! RIP.
Al,
Like you, I sometimes wonder, “Is the focus on this and that title, in this and that condition, with or without a deep groove, ear, registered trademark, font type, etc. etc. … really of importance, with so much suffering in the world?” It would seem a bit shallow. But then I realize, suffering will always be present in our world, and if I also can “pay it forward” by volunteering, contributing to charity, and helping my neighbor (near and far), then the simple distractions can be OK to enjoy. Random acts of kindness count, like paying for the customer’s order behind you in your favorite food joint drive-through.
I’m never going to be Mother Theresa, but I can embrace the “love thy neighbor” philosophy and help others as the need arises. It will make the world a better place. I think in the end game, life is about balance, and having a hobby/interest within reason is fine, as long as you realize that the focus should be more on outward service than inward self-gratification.
So whether it is collecting LPs or anything else, enjoy it for what it is, and give thanks that it’s there to help us face and survive the craziness each day. My two cents anyway. Thanks for listening.
“You’ve seen my picture in the last post: It is not my body she is after.” … this is one for the ages! I can relate to this as my body has seen better days. 🙂
And by the way, I am seeing sellers being more flexible on the high dollar items these days …. probably influenced by the thought that with the economic uncertainty facing us, a bird in the hand … having cash now is more important than having it later.
Hi JVK, regarding ebay versus discogs, here are my thoughts in a nutshell: Ebay favors the buyer, and discogs favors the seller. I believe this is why discogs was created.
As a buyer, I prefer the auction format. In most cases, although with notable exceptions, the auction format assures that records will sell efficiently, at or around fair market value.
I see more and more choice jazz offerings parked on discogs, frequently at unrealistic prices. Formerly these items would have sold quickly and easily on ebay.
eBay prices have been a bit down as of late. I took a chance with listing a few spare records I had around, and the final tally ended up stinging when a few items fetched triple digits less than expected. However, it appears that certain sellers are still getting high numbers. Paperstax still got $787.50 for a VG/VG copy of the 10” of Afro Cuban by Kenny Dorham that clearly had seen better days, and had some other high sales. If you’re an established high volume seller, your numbers will still be good, but if you aren’t one of the big dogs, it seems it’s best to hold on to your records for now. This seemingly suggests that the cost of these records will rebound, since they can still fetch those numbers, but people are seemingly holding onto their money if they don’t recognize the seller. Probably a byproduct of uncertainty… you don’t want to take risks, but if the seller is recognizable, it’s not as much of a risk, is it? So… I don’t know if this will permanently change the landscape of record collecting, but the next few months might be a good time to buy, if you can. I’ve personally made a few purchases myself. (I’m an “essential worker”, so my paycheck is secure and unchanging… although my desire to grab my coworkers by the collars and scream at them until my throat bleeds is, sadly, on the rise. Things are tense. The employment is nice, but the stressful work situation with everybody riding each other because we don’t have enough people on hand to deal with our high volume of customers is… not great.)
As for international shipping… COVID-19 can only survive 24 hours on cardboard, if my sources are correct, so I’m not sure how much of an issue that’s going to be with overseas purchases. However, things might get tied up in customs. That could be a significant issue.
The local record store- where I’ve made some of my favourite jazz purchases and purchases in general- is closed until the stay-at-home order is called off. They’re selling on Discogs right now, and I’ll be dropping by their online store to see if I can make a purchase or two tonight. I was their last customer on the last day they were open, and the co-owner wasn’t sure if they’d recover. I’ll invest what I can to help them out. Sure, I’ve recklessly thrown my paycheck away a few times there and have proven that I’m not good at resisting temptation (a pretty nice original copy of Lou Takes Off for $60? And next to it a decent original issue of ‘Round About Midnight at the Cafe Bohemia for $100? I mean, if you insist…), but… that’s on me, and I love flipping through the new arrivals. There’s very little like it. I want them to stick around. They’re nice guys, too. They watch High Fidelity on a regular basis, but aren’t inspired by it.
Sad to hear about Lee Konitz. I never got to see him. So far, the only jazz giant I’ve been able to see is McCoy Tyner. He happened to be playing at The Blue Note Cafe when I was in New York a few years back. I would’ve liked to see Lee Konitz, and I have my fingers crossed that I’ll get a chance to see Sonny Rollins. There aren’t too many legends left, sadly. Their names are known, though… I was talking with a friend of mine, 27, about McCoy Tyner just coincidentally the day before he passed. The Real McCoy is one of her favourite jazz albums. It may be a shock to hear, but several of my metalhead friends are into jazz as well, and some of them also play jazz in side bands. They know who these guys are. And at the local JC, the Jazz Appreciation course is always full, as are the jazz band classes. There’s an entire building dedicated to it, and if you walk through the halls you’ll catch glimpses of saxophones and trumpets through the windows on the doors. The giants of jazz may pass, but what they left behind won’t fade away. Many of us are still listening. Not sure if that was something I needed to say, but… can’t hurt, right?
Honestly I have long since I preffer bought on Discogs, Ebay was not good for my hypertension. As for the terrible crisis of the Covid 19, I think it will change the mindset of many collectors, but it is such a great passion that it will be difficult for it to die … The fucking virus will die first.
PS. Jazz giants who still play live, we have practically only Benny Golson left. Every year he comes to my country.A great myth
Heard say Mr. Henry Grimes and Mr. Giuseppi Logan passed on the 15th and 17th respectively, from the virus.
This virus is taking its’ toll of the remaining giants/legends of the music most relentlessly.
Henry Grimes is one of my absolute favourite bassists. My heart is heavy from hearing this news of his death from the virus. He was one of the reasons I got into jazz for real back when Rollins was up for the Polar Music Prize here in Sweden in 2007, when they showed an old black and white concert on TV from Södra Teatern in Stockholm recorded on the 4th of March 1959, with Rollins playing with Grimes and Joe Harris (in for Pete La Roca). Grimes was so young and just strolled through the tunes. I loved it so much and that was it for me. From there on jazz became a very important part of my life.
brooklynvegan.com came with an obituary for Henry with sound tracks from 1959 on. Fredrik,
I saw the 1959 Rollins trio in concert broadcast on Dutch TV by VARA, who still should have the tapes.
Hi,
Any chance that Rudolf who went to the Konitz 1958 The Hague concert could get in touch with me?
Alvast bedankt!
Kind regards,
Bootsy Akkerman
b.akkerman10@gmail.com
Haha “It is not my body she is after” made my day. Stay safe
…Personally, I find myself at a “collecting crossroads” in these uncertain times. Many of us have been laid-off for the foreseeable future, myself included, so spending money on high-end collectibles these days may not be the wisest of decisions. Where-as the thought of selling for survival sake has certainly crossed my mind given the state of affairs, but is quickly dismissed for obvious reasons. Similar to the equities market there are bargains to be had during a bear market, and this is the time when fortunes are often made by the savvy investor in the shadow of great loss.
That being said, this is also a great time to get reacquainted with your own library as Clifford noted above. In the last few weeks, I have since re-discovered a vast amount of music within my own collection that hasn’t been aired in our home for decades ! It certainly is a revelation in terms of appreciating what you already have… Which in some cases, is far more than most and could easily last a lifetime. I even went digging through my CD library and box sets over the weekend for those lesser known alternate takes, only to discover that there are many classic sides I still don’t own on vinyl. A discovery which as most of us in the “Jazz Collective” can attest, is typically followed by a quick search on eBay to rectify. In the interest of supporting an otherwise fragile economy, most of us wouldn’t think twice about supporting our favorite restaurants with an occasional take-out order while in self-isolation, so why not support the record sellers of the world whenever possible as part of our civic duty ? To date, I have bought two albums on eBay in the last few weeks and when (and if) they show up, they too will be in quarantine before being allowed out to play !
I think the longest lasting effect of the pandemic will be on crate digging itself. Record fairs and Estate Sales are often contact sports, and people’s willingness to open up their home to have their collections appraised will probably look much different in the future. Soon we might all be reminiscing about those good old days digging shoulder to shoulder with strangers in a cramped garage or basement, searching for that lost treasure…
Yeah, hoping to move to a bigger space in the next year or so, and can truly “unleash the beast” and let a lot of CDs and LPs out of storage and into shelving. It will also be a time to see what I actually want to keep versus ditch.
Very sad to hear about Grimes and Logan the other day — nursing homes and similar facilities are getting hit hard by the virus, and both artists were in that situation.
like always, after a crises life will go on as it used to be… people are unteachable… did we ‘learn’ and change anything after the Banking crisis…. nope! the only reason that prices of old jazz records will drop is because older people die… there will come a generation that will not be interested anymore…. like nobody nowerdays is interested in 78 rpm records or sidney bechet
Most 78’s are of limited musical interest by today’s standards, but the market for high quality 78’s remains fairly strong. Early Bechet 78’s in decent condition are hard to come by, and sell for hundreds.
Owners of high quality jazz LP’s will not sell into a depressed market, regardless of how cash-poor they may become.
I feel there will always be an interest in 78’s. Even though I sold most of my records, 78’s included, and have no turntable to pay 78’s on, I have bid on 78’s recently. It’s the collecting virus.
78’s, as with lps, have a value based on quality and/or quantity. Blues 78’s on Paramount and Vocalion and Okeh and such labels can command high prices , even in poor condition, simply because there ain’t many left of the few that were made in the 1930’s and thereabouts.
Same with Jazz lps. I mean somebody had to be hip enough when these Blue Notes and whatnots were first sold to buy them. So those of us now who either were to young then or weren’t born yet or weren’t hip yet, can get them . Like somebody had to buy Al’s recent acquisition copy of Shades Of Redd new, so he can place it in his lp file in 2020.
That’s why I liked Jazz lps with folk’s names on them. Provided a link, if you will, to the story the lp told separate from the music.