Adventures In Jazz Collecting: The Score (Not)
Mattyman tells the story of the Blue Mitchell record and the rude and competitive and somewhat nasty rival who bid the price up for no reason other than in the hope that Mattyman would put the record down and he would lay claim to it. Good for Mattyman to not fall for the bait and to go home with a great record at a reasonable price. We all have stories such as this. I have many of them, unfortunately. The one I recall most vividly is this, which I may have already told in another context but is worth repeating anyway: I was working my first record show back in the mid-1980s, when there were record shows often in the New York area. There were also many record stores as well, so it was quite a vibrant market. I had bought my friend’s collection and had duplicates for the first time and I was just trying to get rid of some records. I haven’t come very far since then, come to think of it.
Anyway, as happened once in a while those days, a guy came in with crates of rare records and had absolutely no idea of their value. No idea at all. New records were selling for $7.99 in stores, or something like that, so he figured used records must be $5 or so. So he priced all of his records at $5. This included Tina Brooks True Blue; Lee Morgan Candy; Hank Mobley’s Message, 1 and 2; and many, many others too numerous to name. The guy was at a table near me, and I would have pounced, but I never got the chance. As he was getting the records out of his car, two of the top New York dealers of the day accosted him, convinced him to show them the records and pulled out all of the valuables before they made their way into the room.
Because the guy’s table was near mine, I chatted with him a bit during the day and he confided two things to me. 1. He may have made a mistake in pricing the records so low. Perhaps he should have asked for $7 each instead of $5. 2. It was a good thing he only brought a few of his records because he had hundreds more at home he was hoping to sell. Upon hearing this revelation, my heart sank into my stomach and I pictured the big score of my lifetime. I acted quite calmly, of course. Really, I said. You have more records. You would like to sell them for $7 each. I might be interested. If you’re not doing anything tomorrow, how about if I come by your house. I don’t live too far away. Oh yes, do me one more favor: Don’t tell anyone else about this, just in case I would like to buy all of the records. I don’t think I slept at all that night in anticipation. I went to the bank early, took out $400 cash, which was all I could really afford at the time, and headed to the guy’s house so I would be there at 7:30 a.m. He had told me to come at 9 a.m., but I wasn’t taking any chances.
So I got there, and I had $4,000 in my pocket, and I rang the doorbell at 7:30 and the guy answered the door and he said come in and there in the living room was one of the NY dealers rifling through the guys shelves as if he had springs in his fingers: Pulling out records, dropping them on the floor, pulling out more records and creating a pile of Blue Notes and Prestiges and Riversides and Emarcy’s the likes of which I had never seen. The guy introduced me to the dealer, who was about as pleased to see me as I was pleased to see him, and I started going through any area of shelf that looked like it hadn’t been pored through. There were still plenty of nice records on the shelves and at $7 apiece I was still ready for a score. I must have had 60 records in my pile and the other dealer must have had 200 records but still he looked at my pile with envy and clearly wanted what he had and what I had.
I pulled out my $400 and started to settle with the guy when the dealer opened up his mouth. “You should be charging $20 a record,” he said. “That’s what I’ll pay you for all of the records. $20 each.” I had 60 records. At $20 apiece I was looking at $1,200, which I didn’t have, either in my pocket or in my bank account. The dealer pulled out a roll of cash. The guy selling the records was clearly startled. “Twenty dollars apiece,” he said. “That sounds about right.” I looked at the dealer with contempt and did what I had to do, which was choose the 20 records I really wanted. I think I negotiated with the guy to give me five extra records for my $400. As I was leaving, there were three other dealers pulling up into the guy’s driveway. At least, I had been smart enough to get there early and walk away with some nice records. Among the ones I recall: Clifford Brown and Max Roach at Basin Street; Mating Call, Tadd Dameron and John Coltrane; Soultrane; the Eddie Costa record with Bill Evans doing Guys and Dolls; a couple of Blakeys on Blue Note. Not bad for $20 apiece in near mint condition. I should have been happy, but instead I was kicking myself for not getting there earlier and for not having more money. I think I learned some lessons from this experience, but I’ll have to think hard to figure out what they were. I think the lasting lesson, and the one still applicable today: If you want the really good records, you better have some cold hard cash.
I learned that lesson the hard way too. Always carry as much cash as you can feel safe carrying into those situations.
At least take away the fact that you probably benefited the naive seller greatly. So on your deathbed, you’ll receive total consciousness. So you have that going for you.
Well, Al, since my experience with the Blue Mitchell from last Sunday triggered this fantastic story from you, I would really like to read more about this from the other members here as well. After all it’s valuable reading material that we can all keep in the back of our mind the next time we go vinyl hunting! 😉
Mattyman
“You should be charging $20 a record,” he said. “That’s what I’ll pay you for all of the records. $20 each.”
AARRGGGHH!!!
If there was ever a reason to outlaw personal firearms,this is it-Al,it’s a good thing you weren’t packin’! Seriously,though,where does one draw the line? He says come at 9am,you show at 7:30 and regret that you didn’t come earlier. The other buyer sees your pile and makes a counter-offer,which is ALWAYS “bad form”(I hope you didn’t let him flip through what you were holding onto-that’s the first sign that something’s up.) Is there no honor among thieves? Oops,I forget-there still IS..just not amongst some record dealers!
Aah, the nostalgic world of face to face buying, however you might wince, good compared to the global “screen to screen” with Paypal in your pocket.
I presume you watched Sonny Clark’s Cool Struttin’ DG on 47W63rd go for a cool $2500 a few days ago? New bidder three seconds to go closed it.
Perhaps there are still some naieve sellers around, but the availablity of auction results via Posike et al means most people selling today have a good idea of worth.
As a new collector I deal with these inflated values day to day. Instead of underpriced, the usual experience is overpriced.
Wise words DaveS…(I am glad to see I am not the only one who bases his life on Caddyshack philosophy !)
…In this case Al, it sounds like the ‘ol guy was playing you and the dealers off each other ! Perhaps there is some consolation in the fact that he still got screwed at $20 a record from the sounds of it !
Same experience as London Calling … less and less sellers not being aware of the value of the vinyl stuff they offer… moreover I have a feeling that there are more and more sellers getting “help” from buddies lifting the bids… Free market, isn’t it?
p.s. In retrospect Al, you would have certainly been justified in taking off with the “dealers” car tires after leaving the ‘ol guys house ! heh heh… All is fair in love and war is it not ?
the scene is clean! nothing has changed it would seem
here in london the record scene is well and truly fhinished
dealers complaining about ebay/popsike yet they run and behind its shirttails to justify prices for product in poor condition it is the likes of these dealers that has contributed to its demise so lets not talk about what price candy orsonny clark goes for but ways to kick stsrt a record scene which is dying/dead on its feet
Did anyone follow the Hank Mobley BLP 1568 Blue Note auction? It fetched almost 2,000 Dollars… Too much for me. Check it out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220705841570&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
The Bud Powell that the same seller had on auction, “Bud!” sold for less than 200 bucks. Maybe I should have focussed on that one! 😉
Mattyman
There are still deals to be had on Ebay especially from the big sellers like Euclid, Jazz Record Center and Music Matters, Ltd. For example the Chris Connor Bethlehem 10″ Lullabys of Birdland went for $282 on Euclid a month ago, three weeks later Euclid auctioned off another copy in the same condition which I won for $108. Music Matters had a copy of Ken McIntyre’s Stone Blues in mint condition at a starting price of $20. No one bid. That’s a rare record that could have been had for peanuts (and for which I lost track of when it was ending – arrgh!). In two months time they’ll list it again and get a $100 plus. It’s all timing. You have to be patient. With that being said Blue Notes command insane prices so if you’re new to the collecting world buy the CD for now and wait a couple of years when I’m sure the prices will be more realistic.
I was kicking myself on the Stone Blues too. I almost emailed them and asked to pay $40. I payed $60 for lookin ahead in M-, and I’ve seen that more often than Stone Blues. I thought that 1568 for a NM- auction was a steal relative to what it’s gotten in that condition over the past few years. The cover was VG and holding it back I guess, but I was expecting that auction to go to $3000+.
The actual description of the 1568 cover was, and I quote: “The cover slick is not torn, but it is separating from the cover at the cover opening.” I think that means that the part that was glued on to the cardboard underneath was actually coming off, which usually results in a ‘bubbly’ look of the front; the effect that also occurs when a cover has been exposed to water for some time. But still: Hank Mobley’s BLP 1568 and J.R. Monterose’s BLP 1536 are the two Blue Notes that I personally consider the Holy Grale when it comes to Blue Note. Especially because it’s exactly those two releases that, according to what I’ve read multiple times, were originally and initially only pressed in a run of around 500 to 600 copies. As asked before: can someone confirm these numbers? The mere idea to have an original first pressing from those small runs is just like a dream. Anyway, Mike, Doug, thanks for your comments; again useful and comforting information 😉
Mattyman
And hey, do not forget to visit this page:
http://www.birkajazz.com/archive/blueNote1500.htm
There’s a lot to see there. Maybe not as thorough as Mr Yokosuka’s webpage (http://www.gokudo.co.jp/Record/BlueNote2/index.htm), but still a lot of fun.
Hello Al, I don’t know what’s going on, but sometimes the comment field on jazzcollector.com is a bit of a pain: the other day I couldn’t leave links and right now I get the message “Your comment is awaiting moderation”. I sure hope this is a ‘glitch’ of the website itself and not from you, after all we adults don’t need to be moderated! 😉
Mattyman
I can’t confirm anything about the print run, I wish I knew what the average print runs of any Blue Note, let alone there rarest of them. I have seen on Message Boards and in auction descriptions that 1568 has it printed at either 500 or 1000. I don’t necessarily consider it reliable. The one thing I am pretty sure of is that it was not re-pressed until maybe the liberty era, if not later. The earliest re-pressing I’ve seen where 70’s Japanese. I think that has added to the mystique over the years. It was difficult to find until maybe the past 20 years in any form. You combine that with the low print runs and the fact it’s beautiful music and I think that’s why this album goes for so much. Anybody no anything about the repress history pre United Artists?
Well, you see Mike? You also read about the low print run numbers on Mobley’s 1568. This means that you and I are probably not too far away from the truth. Now I do have a reissue of 1568 on vinyl in genuine stereo, not ‘electronically re-channelled’ crap, fake stereo, no: real stereo and I simply love that album. It’s just a superb record. And for that reason and also because I’ve never, ever seen a US domestic reissue on CD, let alone a EU one on CD, I want to have a copy from that very, very first print run. It means that much to me 🙂
Mattyman
For those of us who still have kids in college (my son is at USC) these prices are simply out of reach. My alternative: I am listening to The Bill Evans Trio, Trio Live LP, Verve. I paid 50 cents for it at my local thrift store, and it sounds great…..Also, I posted before that sometimes I get my jazz records at local record shows where the sellers are simply trying to move volumes. My average price there is $2. I think it’s great to get original BN’s, but right now that’s just a dream.
Most BN records have a second pressing that is affordable ( under 200 dollar), and often you will have the SAME lp or the SAME albumjacket as a first pressing. That is close enough for me if i can’t find a affordable first pressing.
If these are to expensive i ‘ll go for a mono liberty or UA… but even these pressings are now 30 to 40 years old.
But even in Amsterdam,NL, i still come across first pressings of the 4000 and 4100 series for 30 euros.
(ok, vg+)
If i have all the bn’s (1500-4400), then mayby i’ll do some upgrading. I have about 140 lp’s to go,but i don’t buy on internet, only in recordstores and fleamarkets. Only then i get that adrennaline of hunting. On internet everything can be bought, so for me there is no “fun’ in it.
Almost the whole BN collection i have on cd, so it is not only about the music.A big part of collecting (blue note)on LP is to COMPLETE it, i must admit. It becomes an addiction. A nice addiction.
Good morning Gents,
Here is something I looked into with Larry Cohn, back on June 28th, 2010 with regards to the pressing information on Hank Mobley’s BN 1568 in response to our friend Mattyman’s query:
“Just to add to the mystique of the ever illusive (and expensive) Hank Mobley 1568, I went to Blue Note expert Larry Cohn to shed some light on the subject of how many copies were actually pressed originally and here is the response:
“For 1568 the number commonly used, by Cuscuna and myself is 600 copies total pressed, including test copies and review/promotion/audition copies. That is a reasonable estimate, and I once queried Orrin Keepnews about rival Riverside Records’ quantities from the period and he proved the most helpful on the subject. He had produced a Bill Evans record for Riverside in 1957, and he told me they pressed and sold 700 copies. When Bill Evans became famous with Miles’ group soon after they decided to press an additional 900 more copies to capitalize on that publicity, and Orrin said that turned out to be too many –it was very slow and difficult to sell the additional 900. Now Bill Evans was always more famous (and popular) that the minor echelon Blue Note artists (e.g., Louis Smith, John Jenkins), so his fellow Miles sideman Mobley would have sold even less albums than he.”
Thanks again Larry !”
…They base these numbers on a method of counting the number of stampers known to have been used on various copies of the LP and can verify with some degree of accuracy the number of copies / pressings that were done for each LP. One thing to look out for on this one is that out of the +/-600 copies thought to have been pressed originally, there are no stereo pressings as of yet, and there are also two (possibly three) label variations… The one with the full address “Blue Note Records 47 West 63rd New York 23 on one side of the record label and “Blue Note Records 47 West 63rd NYC” on the other is much rarer, with only of about +/-200 known to have been issued from that original batch of 600… The remaining +/-400 all have the “Blue Note Records 47 West 63rd NYC” on both sides, which can explain the difference in selling price of some that go for $2000, and others that go for $5000… It may be possible that there is a few copies out there with “47 West 63rd New York 23” on both sides, but this is the proverbial white whale, and no one has yet to see one to date. (I suspect if you ever found one, it would be the equivalent of winning the lottery…)
Never the less, hang in there Mattyman, you will find your copy… The hunt is the best part of collecting I think. I only just found an original copy this one in the past 6 months myself… It cost me $1250 for one in +VG condition but it has the less rare “47 West 63rd NYC” address on both sides. Needless to say, I really haven’t bought any records since then, because I am still paying for it !
nice story and info,don-lucky!
Don-Lucky:
Thanks for the pressing quantity intel.
Any other comparable tidbits on other BN records?
Thanks,
Dave
Well, Don-Lucky, thank you so much for a great and super interesting story. So it turns out after all that I did read the correct number somewhere before, because now you confirm it here: 600 copies… And then the label variations, it just adds so much more mystery to that one Mobley. I guess it’s the same thing then for J.R. Monterose’s 1536, since that one seems to be just a hard to find as the 1568. And of course you and Maarten are right about the fun of hunting and finding the gems in record stores and flea markets, so I’ll continue to do that as well and enjoy it! 😉
Mattyman
I’ve read this post with joy and with anger as well. First of all I think, there is a crate diggers or collectors code of ethics. That includes not to dig in the same bin as another collector and not to yell out the great finds or trying to overbid another collector. If one’s lucky with a great record – well, he might have been there earlier, that’s his luck (and by that I mean fleamarkets or record-stores). Absolutely unfair and sad is the second part of the story, the guy being there more early, while you should have been the exclusive one. And that guy’s behavior is just rude and unpolite.
When it comes to collecting records, I am still pretty new to the game and finding nice original pressings is almost impossible in Germany (where I live) nowadays. So ebay is still a good opportunity to get some nice records, even Blue Notes. I often try lower graded records for very reasonable prices, which turn out to be quite nice and enjoyable. Otherwise it’s impossible for me, to pay the big prices. I started out getting a solid foundation with blue label pressings – just because of the music – so right now I can focus on the original ones. What I find interesting is, that Riversides and Jazzland-Pressings as well as some Prestiges (or even nice Contemporary as well as Pacific Jazz recordings) can still be found for reasonable prices. So I try to get my hands on them, as fast as I can. And how come that a Wing-pressing of “Introducing Nat Adderley” is not worth a shitload of money with that band?!
On the other hand I still manage to find nice BN’s (like a NM “Idle Moments” for ~20$ as an example). But it’s like a sleepless job; you always have to be on the prowl. In the last months I lived in upstate New York an that was pretty nice to see the difference to the stores in my homecountry with even original Blue Notes for reasonable prices.
So thank you all for this excellent blog and your shared affinity for a really nice hobby!
What this thread caused me to reflect on seriously is how SMALL the market for our beloved jazz was and to an extent still is.
In Sixties NY they maybe fitted 50-150 people into a jazz club of an evening to hear the greats? Record sales counted in hundreds or a few thousands over three months, in a country with an adult US population at the time around 150 million.
A bid battle I lost out on Sunday night for Grachan Moncur’s Evolution closed at £175 ($250) with around 17 bids. There were maybe 40-50 “watchers”. On a planet of three trillion people.
These numbers are so small, they are but stardust compared to the number of downloads of Rihanna or Katy Perry that day.
Extraordinary sense of perspective. But a nice hobby indeed.
You’re right, London Calling. I never even thought of it that way. I wonder to what heights the prices would have gone if we were looking at a market with thousands and thousands of buyers actively on the prowl for those same gems… On the other hand: none of my friends -and I absolutely mean none– of my friends is even remotely interested in jazz, let alone ‘crappy, used and old’ records. Let’s just think of it like this: the lack of interest cuts down the field for guys like us! 😉 On another note, thinking about people who don’t have a clue about jazz/collecting/labels/pressings etc: imagine the situation where grandpa passes away and leaves his family with an enormous collection of ‘old records’. Chances are, especially if the family in question never gave a rat’s ass about grandpa’s weird hobby, that they might just throw away the whole lot. There are always ignorant and obscenely dumb family members in every family who haven’t got a clue about the value of records, let alone they know how to ‘work’ the internet to see if maybe there’s people out there who might fork out some cash for these LPs. I know of one situation here in my city where this actually happened. I was still collecting seventies funk in those days. Apparently, crates full of records went -just like that- IN the dump truck, while one of the sons of the old chap said to the dump truck operator: “In this day and age of compact discs, who needs old records?” And, but that’s just my imagination, maybe even tipped the guy when finally all records had been thrown in the truck and crushed to smithereens…
Ya’ll have to imagine, that these few people then are people who really share the love and the value for the music and for these old records. That’s somehow better than all these kids, that listen to their mp3’s for sometime and then go on to something new. And more people for less records would really destroy the market, priceweise. But all in all, music and collecting is a magical mystery tour…somehow.
By the way, did anyone follow this auction of Hank Mobley’s 1568 from Euclidrecords? Lately the 1568 copies pop up like mushrooms; this time it harvested almost 2,000 Dollars:
http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310279676074&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
I guess it’s time to win the lottery this year 😀
I was watching it, being that it was VG+(albeit from a top tier seller) this was pretty high I think. Still, like you Mattyman, I want this baby bad.
You’re absolutely right Mike. As said: if I win the lottery I’ll just keep bidding and bidding until I have it. I mean, just think about it: having this absolutely superb Mobley album in its original form, out of that original batch of only 600 copies, in your own house! To have and to hold 😉 Well, until that time I just have to live with a vinyl reissue, which by the way was reissued in 100% genuine and absolutely pristine stereo. No electronically re-channelled crap, no: genuine binaural stereo, left right and a beautifully present middle section in the stereo image. If you want to listen to it, then let me know through email: manmatty[at]gmail[dot]com 😉
Which re-issue do you have? My two are both mono and I would like to listen to it in stereo. I’ll email you tomorrow. Thanks for the offer.
It is an exact replica of the original LP, no barcodes, no DMM mastering, but it is a 304 Park Ave. address, which according to everybody is inferior material. Now I might be a rookie when it comes to collecting Blue Note on vinyl, but I’ve spent almost 30 years collecting seventies funk on vinyl and my audio system is absolutely up to par and believe me: this BLP1568 replica in stereo sounds just fine. Nothing wrong with it. You have to hear it to believe it. As said, you can shoot me an email (and of course other members that are interested for that matter): manmatty[at]gmail[dot]com and we’ll pick it up from there. 😉
Sounds like you are talking about the readily available $10 Scorpio issue which was pressed from the 16/44.1 CD master.
Aha, yes, a Scorpio reissue. The name is mentioned nowhere on the cover, label or run out groove, but if you say so, Aaron, then I immediately believe you, ’cause I remember reading comments about that name and that their pressings are supposed to sound inferior. But in this particular case I am going to put my foot down when it comes to audio quality, ’cause re-pressed from CD or not; it honestly does sound great on my system and the entire reissue is in genuine, two channel binaural, stereo. As said in my previous post: if there are interested members around that would like to listen to 1568 in stereo, then my email address is mentioned above. 😉
These Scorpio-counterfeits pop up quite often and they are very different. Some of them have high quality cover-reprints, while others have rough reproductions, that almost look like colour-copies. Some of them have a great sound, whilst others sound harsh and thin. It depends on the source, that was used. They used everything from old LPs up to new CDs. But all in all, to my opinion they are better, then their reputation.
One really bad thing is, that they mix up the adresses on the labels and their use of stereo and mono on the labels and the back sleeve.
They are available for several years now, and they carry a big part of the BN-catalogue by now.
I agree with you, Katharsis. Your description makes it clear that not all of these reissues are bad. The Mobley 1568 replica, I have to say it, is top. 😉