Random and Rare Jazz Vinyl
Back to my eBay watch list, starting with Helen Merrill, Emarcy 36006. I put this in my queue without really looking at the listing because the price was getting up there. It finally sold for $710. When I finally did look at the listing, just now, I was pretty surprised to not see the drummer logo. So this was not an original pressing. It was listed in M- condition for both the record and the cover, and having this record in M- playing condition would be nice. We are seeing the rise in value of second pressings pretty consistently now, so I guess it shouldn’t be a surprise, even though, to me, it was.
Here’s a real original, Red Garland Quintet, All Mornin’ Long, Prestige 7130. This one features John Coltrane in one of his earlier recordings. This copy had the original cover, the New York yellow label and “Not For Sale” stamp. The record and cover were both listed in M- condition. The final price was $510. And another Prestige original: Jackie McLean, Lights Out!, Prestige 7035. This was also a New York yellow label, listed in VG condition for both the record and the cover. The final price was $482.70. And, while we’re still in the land of Prestige: Lem Winchester and Benny Golson, Winchester Special, New Jazz 8223. This was an original deep groove purple label pressing, listed in VG+ for both the cover and the record. The final price was $222.50.
I rarely am able to say such things, but that Lem price is pretty wild. I got a copy, on eBay, in NM shape, just two months ago, for less than one-third of that price.
Hmm same seller as Merril has a Mobley 1544 with asing price 1499 dollars. Correct labels but no flat rim or frame cover. Do you consider this a first? Price seems a bit steep even in NM condition?
I was the winner of the Jackie McLean ‘Lights Out!’ album…looking forward to receiving it in the mail soon…
The Helen Merril is not even a second press. Is a fourth, the first has a silver ring and large drummer label, the second has no ring, the third has a small drummer and then there is this one. Not to mention the blue ink back. But millenials are not aware. They recently discovered Lee Morgan and Ray Bryant…
Soon on Instagram.
BTW The Helen Merrill record was sold by a very active Instagram guy. For sure he brags a lot about his Blue Note full “still sealed 🙂 collection and is a kind of influencer for young generation. Quite arrogant, from my experience…
i doubt he is as insufferable as your inflated sense of superiority, michel.
Hey Greg the Fish ! : i always say exactly what i think when i know what i’m talking about. And i shut up when i’m ignorant (which is very often). Please feel free to defend your inflated friend. 🙂
It’s kinda like baseball, ya need a pitcher and a catcher. The market moves up & down on everything. So if ya got somethin’ to sell and a buyer willing to purchase it then ya got 2 happy people. Sure it presents some head scratching moments and the gleeful cry “are you kidding me ! “ It’s very interesting to watch the collecting trends. I wonder if the Corona Virus has caused more people to spend a lot more for something than they normally would ? Give me crate digging or give me bankruptcy !!!
As the seller of Helen Merrill, I too was very surprised at the result. I described the pressing accurately and made no attempts to call this original, the same for any non 1st pressing I sell.
As for IG, I chose to make this my medium to review the Blue Note catalog. I made the decision to listen to the entire catalog in chronological order and write about them. At first I was just going to write in a journal but I was convinced, and I’m glad I was, to write publicly. Essentially never do I brag about condition or value or even mention what pressing it is, I keep it fully centered on the music. Considering this, arrogance is a steep accusation. I merely decided to try my hand at public writing, which I enjoy very much, and share my passion of music. Otherwise it’s just me in my basement, so don’t hate a player for wanting to step out of his solitary confinement and share a little bit.
Easy on strictlyheadies. He never claimed this was a first pressing, he is one of the most honest merchants I know, and I know a lot of merchants. His grading is impeccable. He stands behind all of his records with a 100% guarantee.
To paraphrase Andrew Southlondon, music from the same master metal is sonically the same. Perhaps, perhaps, my cat can hear the difference, but no one on this forum could if it was played 1000 times, better than the flip of a coin’s chance.
Plus, the older, “tinnitus crowd”, is lucky if they can hear the music beyond their advanced presbycusis, let alone the constant ringing in their ears that does not actually exist. Speaking as a surgeon, I should know a lot about this….
Place nice with each other!
Yes please play nice! We share a common interest – foremost the music. Regarding Gohoos81 comment and quote about the older crowd I’ll choose to see the humour in it….and pushing 50 myself my ears were somewhat fresher before. 😉 However IMO the listening experience you gain over time when it comes to valuating sound quality I think more than makes up for not hearing 20Khz anymore. That is evident when I ask my kids how different pressings sound etc.
Regarding metal masters sounding about the same is quite true. However a metal master can wear out but the holy grails we are looking for were seldom pressed in very large quantities so in my experience a later pressing can sound very fresh indeed.
Then to my own question above about the 1544. Nobody jumped on it and maybe it was a daft question but I think it is an interesting trend that 2nd, 3rd or 4th pressing prices are catching up. Is it supply/demand thing or just the fact that OGs 1st pressings are unobtainable for more people? Are we squeezing thepricegap betwen 1st and 2nd or 3rd pressings? And why? anothe fact about the 1544 is that since it does have a beaded rim instead of flat – new metalware is required and the 1st and 2nd do not use the same stampers. Does it make a difference? I don’t know. It sure would be interesting to compare. What do you think?
Shaft, I would always prefer a clean near mint second NJ pressing of for example Saxophone Colossus if I could get it for the same price as let´s say a G+ or VG- original NY copy.
@Strictlyheadies keep up the posts and writing… i like it, and it inspires me to put on a record i see on your insta
you got quite a collection on the later blue notes.. like them too
michel,
I didn’t originally know who you were talking about, but now I do, of course. Coincidentally, he is indeed a friend of mine. And FYI, millenials are in their thirties and forties now. We grew up, as people tend to do.
When I was in high school, there was a kid named Nick who would come to all of my punk band’s shows and stand right up front yelling that we weren’t ‘real punk’. He did it every weekend. I don’t know why. He was the worst and most insufferable kind of gatekeeper. Not happy that others shared his interest, but rather mad for some reason. Oddly, he did not have a band or play any instruments.
In any case, what is your instagram handle? Mine is jazz_peasant. Feel free to join in our escapades. You obviously use Instagram despite your mockery, or you wouldn’t know all of this about our friend SH. Hope to see you there soon, so you can show us exactly how we are allowed to talk about our hobbies. 🙂
Jan I agree with you. But my question is would you pay 1st pressing prices what 1sts usually go for, for 2nd or 3rd pressings?
Instagram has ruined record collecting yet I continue to buy records from Instagram sellers… c’est la vie.
I’m a little late to the game here — collecting for 25+ years, but only just discovered posting records on Instagram is a ” thing.” How has it changed the market and/or ruined collecting?
I’m sorta kidding; same thing was said about eBay 23 years ago.
But I think it has brought younger collectors together (good!) while also driving up prices super high (good for sellers, bad for buyers!). I think a fair amount of people post for “influencer status” and the record scene is not immune to that. We’ve been over this on various other threads but the pay-to-post thing is a vibe killer.
I mean, one can learn from IG but I still think most collectors do zero research on what they’re buying or chasing.
Also, I wonder what will happen to all of this knowledge once the platform goes away or goes through yet another massive update/upgrade. Hope that the writers of IG jazz reviews et al. are keeping drafts or backups of their text somewhere. IG is not easily searchable, especially when it comes to non-hashtag content.
Interesting observations Clifford. I was particularly intrigued by a few of them.
Firstly, I wonder if you could expand on your thoughts about why IG is driving up prices? In my limited experience of trading via IG, It’s turned out that I’ve actually been able to locate some “wanted” records (which is an achievement in itself for somebody who lives away from big cities with bricks-and-mortar record shops) and acquire them at reasonable prices. At least when compared to eBay/Discogs.
Secondly, what you wrote about knowledge sharing on IG and its potentially transient nature set me thinking. I started a blog before I became an IG user and I currently find that I post to IG far more frequently than I do to my blog. I suspect it’s because the effort required for IG posting is much less though I do feel pangs of guilt that I don’t devote sufficient time to the blog. The ironic effect of that is that I seem to spend a lot of time musing about how I could adapt my approach to blog postings to be more productive rather than actually writing for it 🙂
Thirdly, I haven’t encountered “pay to post” “influencers” in my small corner of IG. Maybe that’s because I’m careful about who I choose to follow. If somebody likes one of my posts or makes a comment on one, I always check out their posting history before deciding whether to follow them.
Moving on to the more contentious topic…
One of the people I follow on IG is strictlyheadies and I don’t agree with Michel’s description of him. I’ve followed strictlyheadies for some time now and found his posts to be considered and interesting. Michel, you say that you always say exactly what you think when you know what you’re talking about. That’s fine, I’m all for free speech. Perhaps you could cite some examples that have led you to form this opinion? Given that strictlyheadies’ IG posts seem to have irked you enough to speak out, I have to assume you consider you know what you’re talking about when it comes to IG, yes? If that’s the case, maybe you would be willing to tell us your IG handle and how long you’ve been on the platform. That would demonstrate your credentials.
I don’t have a dog in this fight – I’m just interested in us all having sufficient knowledge to assess the credibility of statements made on either side of the discussion. In the spirit of openness, I’m @intosomethin on IG and my blog is https://into-somethin.blog/ – maybe you could let me know what you think of my humble offerings?
IG has indeed become a marketplace and platform for jazz collectors. If that’s not your bag, fine, don’t join, but don’t dis those who do. It’s a tight little community and I’ve made some friends there as well, including strictlyheadies (with whom I have had the pleasure of diggin’ through a 50,000+ piece jazz collection some years ago) and Greg the Fish. In fact, what IG has shown me that the jazz vinyl collector community is a much more welcoming, polite, helpful and honest group of people than our reputation as elitist nerds. It has also shown me that there are a lot of people who are interested in and appreciate posts about rare jazz vinyl, even if they don’t collect themselves.
Don’t be dissuaded by IG’s reputation as a shallow platform for influencers, it is absolutely possible to connect with like minded music lovers, trade, sell and buy vinyl, hassle free, without fees and drama.
On that note, if you do sign up, hit that follow button @djpari_
To Clifford’s point,
IG has introduced me to dozens of friends and hundreds of new and exciting artists I never would have discovered otherwise. Many of them, Clifford included, have posted in this thread. That to me is definitely worth any type of price inflation, or the occasional irritating elitism, whcih I have found to be shockingly rare.
But is IG really driving prices up? I would lay the blame for price increases squarely at the foot of eBay. I buy a lot of records direct from my IG contacts, and I always get great deals compared to popsike or discogs data. I sell on IG sometimes as well, and I try to return the favor.
The camaraderie and fun I have is for more valuable to me than any individual record.
And as Clifford mentioned, I do weekly backups of my IG data and posts. I don’t think they are very important, but I did work hard on them, and want them preserved.
Greg – I agree. I don’t think IG drives up prices. In fact, it’s where you might get a better deal because the middle man (eBay) is cut out, and many sellers and buyers know each other. But I do think that some of our posts might increase demand of certain titles, and that might impact eventual auction prices over on eBay.
I’ve only bought one LP from a record store found on IG, so I can’t say whether it’s driving up prices. But I can say every resource that’s come along during my collecting “career” has driven up prices a bit. 30+ years ago the Umphred price guides made thrift stores and antique dealers aware that these old records could be valuable, driving prices up. eBay made it possible to get stuff that rarely turns up in local record stores and to be more selective about label variations and condition, driving prices up. Jazzcollector and Londonjazzcollector have been invaluable in learning about first pressings, pressing variations, and rarity, but have also driven prices up.
The thing is, there is no way I’d have even my mediocre-to-moderate knowledge of record collecting without the blogs, eBay, Discogs and now IG. Even though a lot of this stuff will be forever beyond my budget, I consider the knowledge and exposure to great music a fair tradeoff.
And since we’re disclosing IG info, mine is @jefepeters — but sorry, no records posted yet.
In the late 90s I put together a website for a jazz dealer (https://web.archive.org/web/19981202141346/http://www.sidsjazz.com/), and checking it out just now reminded of just how in the dark I was about some of this stuff. I never bid on any of these auctions, but if I had I would have been totally in the dark. Blind auctions, no minimum bid posted. Did “blk/ylw N.J. addr D.G.” mean it was the first pressing? How should I know? I’ve only seen one beat-up copy in a record store 5 years ago.
So what eventually happened to the Something Else after the ebay sale fell through?
If SH still has it he should return it. If sold or traded for a profit he should share that profit with Mark as per the original agreement.
If sold or traded for a loss Mark should in good faith send money to SH to make him whole.
Or, as decades old questions of personal honor are involved, these 2 should fight a duel.
Nothing like a good ‘kerfuffle’ to liven this site up.
I know. It was all peace and love until I stepped in here. I’ll see my way out and make sure the door hits me in the ass on the way.
Gotta say that I appreciate the crux of the eyebrow-raising discussion above. At its core, it is a practical conversation of grading, selling, buying, and related challenges… a reminder to all about the need for accuracy in grading. Also gotta say that if I am Judge Judy in the responses above, I find Strictlyheadies’ words more persuasive than those of the plaintiff, which is no personal diss, merely a commentary on the words above. The discussion has also opened my eyes to “selling jazz vinyl on Instagram” as a thing, which I am surely going to pursue. Conclusion: 1) learned a great deal; 2) Mark, that sure reads like some petty a&% sh#@ to bring up 9 years later for a jazz vinyl bruh trying to spread the love. I got no doggie in the hunt… but come on. Pandemic goin on. Share some luv, bruh.
Whew ! I thought it was gonna be a 3 round amateur fight, turned into a bare knuckle 18 rounder…
Look, it doesn’t have to be this hard. Get yourself a pair of knee pads and start crate digging. Pay the guy at the register $1.99 and take home something which you don’t know anything about and be prepared for the thrill it may bring ! Surprise your Jazz friends, no fair showing the album cover ….
martin:
there are no pay to post influencers in the world of jazz vinyl. people are just being grumpy old curmudgeons because they have nothing better to do.
also, interested parties should be aware that popsike has archives of all of these auctions. some claims can be verified.
Stricklyheadies, no need for you to step away or get knocked by wood on your bum.
‘Twas just commenting on the liveliness of this thread.
Haven’t witnessed such going-on’s over a record since a 78 record convention at Union Grove, Illinois back in the ‘80’s when two dealers got so heated over condition of a Robert Johnson Vocalion 78 that one broke it over the other’s head.
I’ve been offline for a couple days and not paying attention to the comments on the thread. Then I received simultaneous emails from two of our readers asking that I remove their comments. So, of course, I came to see what was going on. They both want their comments removed, so I am going to accommodate them. 20 years from now, when someone is excavating this site, they will come to this post and wonder what happened and why people were sticking up for commenters who didn’t even make comments. And this will be the explanation. Sorry to any purists out there who think I’m letting them off the hook, but I try to be accommodating, nice and fair on this site.
“Ah,my little Al-he’s sucha GOOD boy!”(Insert pinching of cheek motion here)
“Al-a,you such a GOOD boy!”(insert pinching of cheek here)
I will say that the argument spiked traffic on the site its highest level in weeks, so if anyone else wants to pick a fight, be my guest. 🙂
Happy to help! Get a few more like that and soon you’ll be selling advertisements. Lennib, got a good laugh out of that Robert Johnson joke! Quite the mental image gets created.
Al,
My inflated sense of superiority prevents me from being be the full time arrogant curmudgeon nerd :-). Couldn’t it be each in turn ?
Some of the comments left on this post are an absolute riot. Of all the types of Instagram influencers that exist, the jazz record collector variant has to be the least lucrative and influential. Who do some of you think these people are and what kind of reach do you think they have? Jazz record collectors are a very specific niche of obsessive/compulsive people who mostly collect music from the 50s/60s played by people who for the most part are dead. For context, these musicians made most of this music when Jim Crow still existed, so no one is getting influenced in 2021 on a damn thing that isn’t already a convert. Especially when some first pressings today probably cost more than what some of you spent on your first car. Give me a break and come back down to planet earth.
PS – Love that random subtle dig at millennials being unaware. Sounds like the sort of thing someone who thinks “jazz record influencer” is a thing would say. That’s ironic.
Regarding Influencers in record collecting – in my belief they actually exist. You wouldn’t believe how the JRC collector community is actually growing and more and more collectors are buying jazz vinyl. Ken Micaleff’s jazz vinyl lovers are now +8800 people!
Of course not everyone collect OG’s but still when there is growth the influencers come a knockin’. Not just for selling but spreading the world and knowledge…
“Influencer” may in fact be an unfortunate choice of words in the context of jazz vinyl on Instagram, especially since none of us are getting paid for posts (although some of us are being provided free vinyl to review by record companies). But in particular in the market of jazz vinyl collecting, which is and always will be a niche, having thousands of followers is a sign that there’s an interest that extends beyond the fairly small circle of die hard collectors. Many of my own followers aren’t necessarily collectors, but they enjoy jazz and appreciate the information that is shared by many of us. Others simply appreciate the aesthetics of jazz vinyl., and there are some that are interested in the history of jazz and the musicians that make this music great. And the fact is, all of the above does have a not un-significant impact on prices and demand of certain titles which then is reflected in eBay auctions. So yes, there’s a certain extent of “influencing,” albeit on a much smaller scale than fashion of travel accounts (I believe the correct terminology used by marketing strategists is “micro-influencing.”)
Of course in the context of the real life struggles of jazz musicians trying to survive in the Jim Crow era music business, as one poster suggested above, all this seems insignificant and shallow. So does the collecting of high end jazz vinyl, which drives us all to this site. Paying a few grand for an original Mobley is pretty sick in this context, especially when you consider that Mobley got less for making said record.
Bottom line, it’s a fun pastime for many of us who are active on Instagram, we’ve made friends there, we trade, buy and sell there without the restrictions, hassles and high fees of eBay, and we share our views and ideas about America’s greatest musical genre with other likeminded fans, and we even educate. If anyone has a problem with that, they simply have the choice to stay away from Instagram.
Atane Ofiaja,
I don’t know who you are, but we are definitely pals. Well said.
Vintage jazz collecting is absurd in so many ways. Glad to say that at this point I’m quite detached from the obsessing over expensive originals, it feels good to sit back and take all this in without getting emotionally pulled in. Why record collecting does that to some of us, I don’t know. But it wasn’t healthy for me, so I had to step away. I still love music and still collect records but man, all this intensity around expensive vintage jazz records!
I was busy and am just coming back to this. To G. Salmon’s earlier point, I was referring to people who buy records solely for the purposes of an instagram post, and they do exist. Once that post has been made, they keep it moving and often trade or sell the record.
Also, while not all records have gone up in value with IG, certain things have — perhaps it’s more the visibility of them across a variety of social platforms and being able to actually see these records that exist. Sure popularity waxes and wanes, and some uptick in price is certainly attributable to that more generally. Sun Ra records have certainly exploded in value in the last few years and I do ascribe that in part to the social media record community. With good reason, too: the variety of cover art examples is pretty staggering and they look great on an image feed. Psych too, especially private psych, has gone crazy. Being able to see what some of this stuff looks like is a big part of it — certainly I remember when we barely knew how any of these albums sounded, much less what the covers consisted of.
Clifford, buying a record solely to post it on Instagram sounds like pure insanity to me. I’m not saying that’s not true, but that’s complete and utter madness.
Maybe one of us should start a “rent-a-record” page to offer raers to Instagrammers for weeklong loans. Maybe you’re on to something here.
Pari – Why rent the record when you can just post a screenshot of someone else’s. That’s the latest IG trend that bugs me.
I also have heard about this phenomena of buying a record to purely show off on IG and then most likely selling as a loss (maybe a gain in some cases). Maybe this is our ‘urban myth,’ but if not, I think DJ Pari is on to something, maybe an OG Netflix subscription model is in order.
What_can_brown: Oh right — there’s always those who get really creative to showcase Black Gold!
Enjoying this discussion–or at least the gentle parts. As someone who uses IG a little bit, has bought a ton of stuff on ebay, but has never sold or bought anything on IG…. how do you get a reputation as a good quality and ethical seller, and a good quality and ethical buyer, since there’s no rating system as on ebay?
@ Lemmy, that’s a good question. I’d start with following posters that you might know from this blog, then you’ll get a pretty good idea of the wider circle of die hard jazz collectors on IG. You’ll see some of us post records for sale on a regular basis. I’d say the vast majority of jazz collectors on IG are credible and honest. It’s a small community, so one’s reputation is at stake, and if someone took your money or sold you a record that isn’t as described, then they’ll get flagged in a heartbeat and nobody will buy from them moving forward.
I’ve been on IG for about three years now, I’ve sold a ton of records and bought a good amount from others, and not once I’ve had a problem. I haven’t sold a record on eBay since. Everyone is very helpful and will give you advice if you ask them about a certain seller.
Of course you’ll always find some people who aren’t as trustworthy, but you’ll figure that out pretty quickly. Nothing serious, just stuff like over grading and being an ass about it and stuff like that. Just once, about a couple of years ago, there was a guy offering up rare jazz vinyl on IG and he was a fraud. He “sold” a bunch of titles, then took the cash and disabled his account. It caused quite a scene, and some fellow members tracked down his legit account and warned others of his shady dealings. I vaguely remember that people confronted him with what he did, apparently he had been in financial trouble, and vowed to pay everyone back. I’m not sure what came of it, since I didn’t follow or buy from him, but that was the one case I remember where something went wrong.
If you have doubts, just ask the seller to email you an invoice through PayPal for your record and you are protected. I’ve had that a few times when a new buyer asked for that and I have no problem is, I just had to eat the PayPal fees. Other than that, it’s mostly smooth sailing.