Ceedee, thank you for the link. I’ve always been a big Burt Goldblatt fan. Hank looks a lot like Johnny Griffin. Indeed, there are quite a few mistakes. I think I’ll bid on a few of them. Do you know who really is the person identified as Tommy Flanagan? I’m pretty sure it’s not TF.
After doing a bit of searching, I found another dealer with a bunch of Burt Goldblatt proofs and pictures on ebay. It seems his wife is selling them (or at least has given permission). Since I am a computer illiterate, I cannot send the link, but the dealer is roundagain. He has better pictures (of the pictures) and has more and varied photos. Maybe someone else can send the links. If not it is under Music Memorabilia Jazz & Big Band Photos.
There is another listing for the proof sheet from this session. It includes a photo of Booker Little with Don Friedman. My guess then, is a young Art Davis.
Does anyone know the last Blue Note to be issued with the classic blue and white label design with Liberty rim print before the change to the United Artists rim print?
At a friend’s house we compared a mono Out to Lunch with a stereo copy. Sonically, the mono was superior. It had effervescence, whereas the stereo copy sounded dull.
One thing to consider when comparing the mono to stereo Blue Notes is that the monos were cut louder with more compression (less dynamic range) so to get an equal level the stereo copies needs to be played at a louder relative volume.
My name is Franz, and I am what you’d call a “newbie” (or worse) – but I have something in common with you. I like jazz – even if in a very amateurish way, and I am a collector, even if in other fields, so I know what it means to be one.
I am here, on Al’s counsel (thank you, Al), to talk about my deceased father’s LP jazz collection.
As I am a jazz amateur, but absolutely not an expert, and do not have the passion and the means to be a collector, I am wishing to pass this collection (which now is in my family house in the north of italy) into the hands of someone who could truly appreciate it.
The state of the collection – numbering around 500 items – is almost perfect, and most than probably, the LPs themselves have been listened to very rarely, if at all (there are some which are still shrinkwrapped).
Some of it is not “jazz” in the purest sense, as my father had some eclectic tastes. He also travelled lots during his lifetime – so you will find some interesting international editions, if you are into that – roughly 50% usa records and 50% european, divided into italian editions and european editons. You will find also some interesting south african records, too.
You will find in it some interesting stuff – nothing exceptional, I admit – but some good things nonetheless from Blue Note, Riverside and Verve.
If someone is interested, please write me at franz(at)italianconsulting.sg – I have a list of the records that, while somewhat incomplete from a collector’s point of view, tells something about the extent of the collection.
I’m new to identifying collectible jazz records. I’ve found this site and the comments an excellent source of information. There is still much to learn but the whole field is fascinating. I really can’t afford the rarities that are being auctioned for over a thousand dollars. But I like to play my records and usually search for a record with the best sound quality. As an example, I love Bud Powell but can’t even think about buying a first pressing. So I sometimes find a reissue with great sound quality. I’m still a bit confused about the “Prestige” labels. I found a helpful web site called”Prestige Label Guide” that has photos of all “Prestige” first pressings. I’ve read here that the yellow label is usually the most collectible. But on the Prestige label site, they claim that some of the other colors can actually sound better because yellow label sessions that were done many years ago were sometimes recorded with one microphone and can have a tinny sound. I have no idea whether this is true. As I mentioned, I’m just a beginner. In any case, it would be a stroke of luck for me to find a yellow label “Prestige” at a price I could afford. I’m frankly astounded at how high some of these albums are going on eBay.–Brings to mind Bird’s famous rendition of “How High The Moon.”
Does anyone know of a similar site that tracks the sales of blues records? Not Popsike or CollectorFrenzy, but something that includes comments/discussion. Thanks!
Not vinyl, but this Lee Morgan – The Cooker 10.5″ reel is turning into a hot auction. With considerable time left, the action is over $600. That’s pretty good for a 2nd generation tape with NO artwork.
aaron, very true. I’d still rather have the $1,200 Morgan tape than the Sinatra. Did you see he had a handful of tapes listed that said “Do Not bid, info coming”, I wonder what’s on those tapes!!!
As for the listing mentioned in the newest blog entry for Chambers’ Jazz Delegation I will add that the seller didn’t even spell the album title correctly in the listing; that doesn’t exactly instill confidence. I’m not sure why this sold for so much. Perhaps I’m out of the loop on this one.
I just received a later Prestige pressing of Booker Ervin’s “The Space Book.” It a dark blue, stereo, Bergenfield N.J. label with the Prestige logo on the side. This thing sounds fantastic. I probably can’t afford a first pressing anyway. But I’m really surprised just how good this one sounds.
It’s a few days late, but since the records went by otherwise without mention, I’d like to point out the jaw-dropping eBay day that Thad Jobes had on Aug. 8th.
•Detroit New York (BN1513) = sold $1,580
•The Magnificent Thad Jones (BN 1527) = sold $1,027
•The Magnificent T.J. Vol 3 (BN 1546) = sold $1,026
•Olio (Prestige 1784) sold = $229.00
That’s a heck of a good day for an artist often over looked by the public.
Found a copy of Lex Flat Edge The Magnificent Thad Jones (BN 1527) in VG/VG for $25 yesterday. Pretty excited. Now i have to hope after I clean it, it will play through.
This website has been a wonderful resource over the last year in discovering Jazz Lp/artists (Im a beginning jazz listener)I would have never heard of. Ill be honest in that don’t have a lot of money to afford these rare vinyl releases but have routinely been able to purchase CD pressings (typically OJC). Thank you for this site and I look forward to your daily posts.
If owning speakers that do a service to the music played over them concerns you-as well it should-you’ve probably heard(of)Devore Fidelity. This image-showing the lineage of MP3’s-is from his Facebook page. Funny,but true… http://s811.photobucket.com/user/chuckesez/media/vore.jpg.html
Hi, maybe Rudolf can answer this: it’s come to my attention some Prestige LP’s should have a flat edge to be original 1st pressings. Despite having a W.50th St. adress on the labels some have a beaded rim and is therefore considered 2nd pressings. How does one go about in finding out which Prestige LP’s needs a flat edge to be original? Are they flat edge up to a certain number or just randomly? How can I find out and get a list of the ones that should have a flat edge to be original? Could a early Prestige number, like 7034 for example have a beaded rim and still be 1st pressing original? Did they do the different rims randomly?
Fredrik, you raise a lot of questions to which I cannot reply off-hand. As far as I know, no studies have been made on the subject. So we need to start from scratch.
Fredrik, I have never been concerned about the issue of flat rim or not at Prestige.
Having looked at a few early items, they all have some sort of a slight protective rim with 5 or 6 running in grooves.
E.g. the first pressing of # 7005 – MJQ “Concorde” has the same rim as the second pressing.
First pressing: picture sleeve of Place de la Concorde. Adress on rear 446 W. 50th St. Light yellow labels, angular letter type.
Second pressing: Reid Miles letter type cover. Adress on rear 447 W. 50th St. Ochre label, NYC adress, round letter type.
No flat rims in either case.
I compared with Miles Davis 7014 and 7025, both issues as per first pressing of # 7005.
They have the same slight rims as per the two 7005 versions.
I have not found a real flat rim as per e.g. early French Vogue, absolutely flat and no running in grooves.
If you have an example of a real flat rim Prestige, please give me catalogue number and I will check mine.
Thanks Rudolf, it was just that Fred from JRC had a beaded rim 7032 and I asked him if this, as it had a beaded not flat rim, was a 2nd pressing, and he replied yes. Even though it has W50th street labels. Looks like a 1st pressing to me..?
But how about these covers with 446 vs. 447 addresses? How can one know which address should be on the back for it to be 1st pressing if it’s completely random? Are there an example of a 446 version as well as a 447 version cover of the same title or?
Then the light and ochre label types, and the different letter types, when does all these combinations apply if it’s random as well?
Fredrik: Fred is obviously mistaken. All the Prestige copies I checked for you have this beaded rim. I took out my copy of “Jazz for the carriage Trade”. It was acquired as soon as it was issued and it is identical to Fred’s copy. It is beyond doubt that we have here an authentic first pressing. As a matter of fact, I have never seen second pressings (non-kakubuchi, 447 W. and ochre labels).
Btw: the music is terrific. Try to win it. Good luck.
Aaron: I checked my Plastilyte pressing of # 7007 and found it not flat-edge, but bead-rimmed. I have had a re-issue # 7221 “The Beginning” and that one was flat-edged!
How is your 7007?
Rudolf,
My Plastylite copy of 7007 is without a doubt a flat-edge pressing. I had a later W.50th pressing of 7007 (with ads on the back for other Miles albums) and that was a beaded rim. Is your copy of 7221 a Plastylite pressed, Abbey pressed (with AB in the deadwax and a small ring around the spindle hole on the B side) or from somewhere else?
Aaron: I checked the first and second pressings of 7007.
1st: has Plastylite on the cover and no ads for later M.D. issues. The edge has a slight safety lip and running in grooves.
2nd: no plastylite on the cover, ads for later M.D. albums. Edge similar as above.
Counterchecked with a Prestige record that says on the label “Custom molded by Plastylite”: # 7030, same edge in this case. My conclusion: no difference between the three cases.
I don’t have my copy of 7221 anymore, sold it together with a N.J. version of 7007. (Found it slightly exagerated to keep four versions of this recording.) Anyway, 7221 was no plastylite pressing. I have had a similar flat edge pressing of # 7129 (a third pressing N.J. yellow label), which I sold too.
Rudolf: The light and ochre label types, and the different letter types, when does all these combinations apply? When should there be a ochre colored label for example and how could you be sure if a specific title is also available with the lighter yellow colored label and which one of these is the 1st pressing? Or should I just go on the W50th address on the label and hope for the best if the cover seems to be a genuine 1st art?
Fredrik: there is no better way than to take concrete examples. If you manage to trace the items which were on sale by JRC (Fred Cohen), take the label of “Jazz for the carriage trade”- PrLp 7032, as an example of the first label variant. The label of “Saxophone Colossus” PrLp 7079 is an example of the second label variant. HOWEVER, this second edition became the standard first pressing as from around # 7037 or # 7038. I.e. an original pressing as from 7037/7038 will have the second label variant, but is still an original first pressing. I have some examples of second pressings prior to 7037/8. They have the second label, as per Saxophone Colossus. E.g. my 7004 has the latter label and is a second pressing. I sold my first label pressing because of a scratch. Also my 7004 cover is not kakubuchi and has a broad spine with title. But second labels exist in kakubuchi covers.
Analyse these two labels and note the differences (letter type, colour, adress). It is difficult to describe, but look carefully.
Rudolf – as always, you are a fountain of wonderful information. Out of curiosity, and based on your comments, I pulled a number of my copies from the 7000 series, and, sure enough: 7037 has the lighter color and early type, and, right after the change-over, 7039 has the darker color and later type. Also, address on bottom reverse of 7037 is 446 West 50th, address on bottom reverse of 7039 is 447 W. 50th. Based on this info, I have therefore pieced together that a number of my pre-7038 LPs (7013, 7036) were actually second pressings, as they had the darker color labels and 447 on the jacket. Obviously wonderful pressings still I am absolutely delighted to have. I just never noticed the difference before.
The covers then, I have a 7043 with 446 address, so the covers don’t all have 447 after 7038 at least. And are the kakubuchi variant covers random as well, so 1st pressing titles have them and some don’t? Or can you say that these covers should all be represented together with a 1st pressing disc up to a certain number?
7000-7057 +(7060, 7061, 7063)
446 W. 50TH ST. label, DG, no spine text.
7064-7141 +(7058, 7059, 7062)
446 W. 50TH ST. label, DG.
7142-7258
Bergenfield, N.J. label, DG.
7259-7320
Bergenfield, N.J. label, no DG.
This obviously doesn’t include important minutia in determining first pressings like laminated vs. non-laminated covers for albums with the same address on the label or other basic characteristics, for example a Bergenfield label 7044 with no spine text, etc.
Aaron/Fredrik/Joe L: 446 vs 447. Nobody knows whether these numbers stand for a separate building, or a different entrance in the same building (office/warehouse). It is just guessing if a removal from 446 to 447 took place. I personally don’t think so.
My 7043 first edition cover “Informal Jazz” has the 446 adress. My 7044, a GEM album, has 447. GEM produced album covers appeared later. 7041 has 446 and is kakubuchi unlaminated.
My 7044 Bergenfield pressing has a broad spine with text and is a GEM production, without adress on the rear though.
Prestilogy is a difficult subject to study, rewarding and full of surprises.
Fredrik: did you win the Wallington?
I had never noticed the GEM covers before – thanks once again Rudolf. Interestingly, a have few GEM covers, but a few have the thin spine with no writing. I reviewed a few pressings quickly this morning, and discovered the following:
7037 – lighter NYC label, 446 cover address, no writing on spine (first pressing);
7038 – darker NYC label, second cover, 446 cover address, wide spine with writing (second pressing? or third?);
7039 – darker NYC label, GEM cover, 447 cover address, but thin spine with no writing (second pressing? or third?);
Joe L: thanks yours, very interesting. Let’s compare notes.
My 7037 identical to yours;
7038. You are describing the second cover design by Reid Miles, I presume. My copy identical to yours. My first design copies (Tom Hannan) have thin spines. One is a G E M album, the other is not, and the adresses on both are 447.
I have seen (a year ago or more) on EBay what I consider to be the real first pressing of 7038: non laminated kakubuchi cover and the first label type. Since I have already three copies, I decided not to bid.
7039: my copy has a thin spine, no G E M and 446 adress.
Your 7058 is an interesting one with a thin spine. Mine has a broad spine with printing.
I have 7060 with a thin spine, no G E M. My 7061 thin spine with G E M. Both 447.
With 7070 starts a series of ten albums (except for my 7072 and 7077) with very broad spines allowing for the special print. All are G E M albums. I think they are originals, whereas earlier catalogue numbers with GEM are likely to be second versions. So my theory is that the contract with G E M started around 7070, and re-prints were also done by them.
Colour of the labels: whereas the first label type up to 7037/7038 was constant, a bright lemon yellow, the second label type had various shades of yellow, dark, egg etc. These shades were used indiscriminately, and don’t permit to draw conclusions.
Rudolf – yes, my 7038 is the Reid Miles cover (I personally love that cover and prefer it over the original).
Glad to read that my 7079 is likely a first pressing. It sounds dynamite, anyway.
Also pleased to read that the later ochre label colors were actually of varied shades of yellow. I was looking at my copy of 7013 – it has the second cover and a NYC DG label with the later, heavier type, so is a second (or third?) pressing. But the label color is clearly darker than the lemon, but also clearly lighter than the ochre. I thought I was imagining things!
Joe L: 7013. I too have that second abstract cover version and the corresponding label. Sometimes second versions are nicer. I sold my first version copy of 7013 for good money, just because I did not like the framed pictures of the artists, which constitue the first edition cover.
The Reid Miles cover of 7038 is terrific indeed, but, for sentimental reasons I keep the Hannans. Collectors are strange animals!
Ceedee, thank you for the link. I’ve always been a big Burt Goldblatt fan. Hank looks a lot like Johnny Griffin. Indeed, there are quite a few mistakes. I think I’ll bid on a few of them. Do you know who really is the person identified as Tommy Flanagan? I’m pretty sure it’s not TF.
After doing a bit of searching, I found another dealer with a bunch of Burt Goldblatt proofs and pictures on ebay. It seems his wife is selling them (or at least has given permission). Since I am a computer illiterate, I cannot send the link, but the dealer is roundagain. He has better pictures (of the pictures) and has more and varied photos. Maybe someone else can send the links. If not it is under Music Memorabilia Jazz & Big Band Photos.
Thats not Tommy Flanagan..a young Curtis Fuller,maybe?(although the eyes aren’t as distinctive as CF…)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tommy-Flanagan-Jazz-Pianist-Photograph-Burt-Goldblatt-Collection-A-449-/360692656382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53faf528fe
There is another listing for the proof sheet from this session. It includes a photo of Booker Little with Don Friedman. My guess then, is a young Art Davis.
oops, it’s Julian Preister
Does anyone know the last Blue Note to be issued with the classic blue and white label design with Liberty rim print before the change to the United Artists rim print?
At a friend’s house we compared a mono Out to Lunch with a stereo copy. Sonically, the mono was superior. It had effervescence, whereas the stereo copy sounded dull.
One thing to consider when comparing the mono to stereo Blue Notes is that the monos were cut louder with more compression (less dynamic range) so to get an equal level the stereo copies needs to be played at a louder relative volume.
Hello everyone, and well met.
My name is Franz, and I am what you’d call a “newbie” (or worse) – but I have something in common with you. I like jazz – even if in a very amateurish way, and I am a collector, even if in other fields, so I know what it means to be one.
I am here, on Al’s counsel (thank you, Al), to talk about my deceased father’s LP jazz collection.
As I am a jazz amateur, but absolutely not an expert, and do not have the passion and the means to be a collector, I am wishing to pass this collection (which now is in my family house in the north of italy) into the hands of someone who could truly appreciate it.
The state of the collection – numbering around 500 items – is almost perfect, and most than probably, the LPs themselves have been listened to very rarely, if at all (there are some which are still shrinkwrapped).
Some of it is not “jazz” in the purest sense, as my father had some eclectic tastes. He also travelled lots during his lifetime – so you will find some interesting international editions, if you are into that – roughly 50% usa records and 50% european, divided into italian editions and european editons. You will find also some interesting south african records, too.
You will find in it some interesting stuff – nothing exceptional, I admit – but some good things nonetheless from Blue Note, Riverside and Verve.
If someone is interested, please write me at franz(at)italianconsulting.sg – I have a list of the records that, while somewhat incomplete from a collector’s point of view, tells something about the extent of the collection.
Thank you very much, and happy collecting!
Hello Everyone,
I’m new to identifying collectible jazz records. I’ve found this site and the comments an excellent source of information. There is still much to learn but the whole field is fascinating. I really can’t afford the rarities that are being auctioned for over a thousand dollars. But I like to play my records and usually search for a record with the best sound quality. As an example, I love Bud Powell but can’t even think about buying a first pressing. So I sometimes find a reissue with great sound quality. I’m still a bit confused about the “Prestige” labels. I found a helpful web site called”Prestige Label Guide” that has photos of all “Prestige” first pressings. I’ve read here that the yellow label is usually the most collectible. But on the Prestige label site, they claim that some of the other colors can actually sound better because yellow label sessions that were done many years ago were sometimes recorded with one microphone and can have a tinny sound. I have no idea whether this is true. As I mentioned, I’m just a beginner. In any case, it would be a stroke of luck for me to find a yellow label “Prestige” at a price I could afford. I’m frankly astounded at how high some of these albums are going on eBay.–Brings to mind Bird’s famous rendition of “How High The Moon.”
Does anyone know of a similar site that tracks the sales of blues records? Not Popsike or CollectorFrenzy, but something that includes comments/discussion. Thanks!
Not vinyl, but this Lee Morgan – The Cooker 10.5″ reel is turning into a hot auction. With considerable time left, the action is over $600. That’s pretty good for a 2nd generation tape with NO artwork.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321178724831?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
That’s nothing compared to what this Sinatra title went for! http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMPEX-671-REEL-TAPE-PANCAKE-10-5-NAB-Hub-15ips-FRANK-SINATRA-ONLY-FOR-LONELY-/221263460593?pt=US_Audio_Tapes&hash=item33845478f1&nma=true&si=%252B7llqbC789FuHGIDHY%252FBSIsDV%252BE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Especially considering this quote from the auction “SELLING AS A RARE VINTAGE TAPE STRICTLY
RECORDING ON THIS TAPE IS A NICE RARE BONUS”
aaron, very true. I’d still rather have the $1,200 Morgan tape than the Sinatra. Did you see he had a handful of tapes listed that said “Do Not bid, info coming”, I wonder what’s on those tapes!!!
Dave Lee Trio. Classy British Jazz. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261263216546?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
This only comes up for sale rarely. It will be interesting to see what it goes for.
Arick/Aaron,
It appears to me that these are home made copies of the original factory tapes. Look at the hubs.
Terry
el bayno,
Not cool posting a link to an auction without mentioning it’s your item.
As for the listing mentioned in the newest blog entry for Chambers’ Jazz Delegation I will add that the seller didn’t even spell the album title correctly in the listing; that doesn’t exactly instill confidence. I’m not sure why this sold for so much. Perhaps I’m out of the loop on this one.
I just received a later Prestige pressing of Booker Ervin’s “The Space Book.” It a dark blue, stereo, Bergenfield N.J. label with the Prestige logo on the side. This thing sounds fantastic. I probably can’t afford a first pressing anyway. But I’m really surprised just how good this one sounds.
https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/record-labels-guide/prestige/4-prestige/
It’s a few days late, but since the records went by otherwise without mention, I’d like to point out the jaw-dropping eBay day that Thad Jobes had on Aug. 8th.
•Detroit New York (BN1513) = sold $1,580
•The Magnificent Thad Jones (BN 1527) = sold $1,027
•The Magnificent T.J. Vol 3 (BN 1546) = sold $1,026
•Olio (Prestige 1784) sold = $229.00
That’s a heck of a good day for an artist often over looked by the public.
Found a copy of Lex Flat Edge The Magnificent Thad Jones (BN 1527) in VG/VG for $25 yesterday. Pretty excited. Now i have to hope after I clean it, it will play through.
Beware “ahoudori1947” on ebay.
He opened case “item is not received”.
I really sent item and I lost near $1000…. Worst scammer.
This website has been a wonderful resource over the last year in discovering Jazz Lp/artists (Im a beginning jazz listener)I would have never heard of. Ill be honest in that don’t have a lot of money to afford these rare vinyl releases but have routinely been able to purchase CD pressings (typically OJC). Thank you for this site and I look forward to your daily posts.
Best
Theron
This guy has some interetesting stuff for sale..most notably this. Seemsa bit steep in price, but I’m sure it’ll sell to the right person.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/George-Wallington-New-York-Scene-W-D-Byrd-Orig-Uk-Rvg-Ex-Ex-Esquire-Lp-/370848520294?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item56584b5866
If owning speakers that do a service to the music played over them concerns you-as well it should-you’ve probably heard(of)Devore Fidelity. This image-showing the lineage of MP3’s-is from his Facebook page. Funny,but true…
http://s811.photobucket.com/user/chuckesez/media/vore.jpg.html
Hi, maybe Rudolf can answer this: it’s come to my attention some Prestige LP’s should have a flat edge to be original 1st pressings. Despite having a W.50th St. adress on the labels some have a beaded rim and is therefore considered 2nd pressings. How does one go about in finding out which Prestige LP’s needs a flat edge to be original? Are they flat edge up to a certain number or just randomly? How can I find out and get a list of the ones that should have a flat edge to be original? Could a early Prestige number, like 7034 for example have a beaded rim and still be 1st pressing original? Did they do the different rims randomly?
Thanks for an answer!
Fredrik, you raise a lot of questions to which I cannot reply off-hand. As far as I know, no studies have been made on the subject. So we need to start from scratch.
Fredrik, I have never been concerned about the issue of flat rim or not at Prestige.
Having looked at a few early items, they all have some sort of a slight protective rim with 5 or 6 running in grooves.
E.g. the first pressing of # 7005 – MJQ “Concorde” has the same rim as the second pressing.
First pressing: picture sleeve of Place de la Concorde. Adress on rear 446 W. 50th St. Light yellow labels, angular letter type.
Second pressing: Reid Miles letter type cover. Adress on rear 447 W. 50th St. Ochre label, NYC adress, round letter type.
No flat rims in either case.
I compared with Miles Davis 7014 and 7025, both issues as per first pressing of # 7005.
They have the same slight rims as per the two 7005 versions.
I have not found a real flat rim as per e.g. early French Vogue, absolutely flat and no running in grooves.
If you have an example of a real flat rim Prestige, please give me catalogue number and I will check mine.
Thanks Rudolf, it was just that Fred from JRC had a beaded rim 7032 and I asked him if this, as it had a beaded not flat rim, was a 2nd pressing, and he replied yes. Even though it has W50th street labels. Looks like a 1st pressing to me..?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/George-Wallington-on-Prestige-/290965325401?hash=item43bee28659
But how about these covers with 446 vs. 447 addresses? How can one know which address should be on the back for it to be 1st pressing if it’s completely random? Are there an example of a 446 version as well as a 447 version cover of the same title or?
Then the light and ochre label types, and the different letter types, when does all these combinations apply if it’s random as well?
Fredrik: Fred is obviously mistaken. All the Prestige copies I checked for you have this beaded rim. I took out my copy of “Jazz for the carriage Trade”. It was acquired as soon as it was issued and it is identical to Fred’s copy. It is beyond doubt that we have here an authentic first pressing. As a matter of fact, I have never seen second pressings (non-kakubuchi, 447 W. and ochre labels).
Btw: the music is terrific. Try to win it. Good luck.
I have to double check but I think the first Plastylite pressing of 7007 “The Musings Of Miles” was flat-edge.
Aaron: I checked my Plastilyte pressing of # 7007 and found it not flat-edge, but bead-rimmed. I have had a re-issue # 7221 “The Beginning” and that one was flat-edged!
How is your 7007?
Rudolf,
My Plastylite copy of 7007 is without a doubt a flat-edge pressing. I had a later W.50th pressing of 7007 (with ads on the back for other Miles albums) and that was a beaded rim. Is your copy of 7221 a Plastylite pressed, Abbey pressed (with AB in the deadwax and a small ring around the spindle hole on the B side) or from somewhere else?
Aaron: I checked the first and second pressings of 7007.
1st: has Plastylite on the cover and no ads for later M.D. issues. The edge has a slight safety lip and running in grooves.
2nd: no plastylite on the cover, ads for later M.D. albums. Edge similar as above.
Counterchecked with a Prestige record that says on the label “Custom molded by Plastylite”: # 7030, same edge in this case. My conclusion: no difference between the three cases.
I don’t have my copy of 7221 anymore, sold it together with a N.J. version of 7007. (Found it slightly exagerated to keep four versions of this recording.) Anyway, 7221 was no plastylite pressing. I have had a similar flat edge pressing of # 7129 (a third pressing N.J. yellow label), which I sold too.
Rudolf: The light and ochre label types, and the different letter types, when does all these combinations apply? When should there be a ochre colored label for example and how could you be sure if a specific title is also available with the lighter yellow colored label and which one of these is the 1st pressing? Or should I just go on the W50th address on the label and hope for the best if the cover seems to be a genuine 1st art?
Fredrik: there is no better way than to take concrete examples. If you manage to trace the items which were on sale by JRC (Fred Cohen), take the label of “Jazz for the carriage trade”- PrLp 7032, as an example of the first label variant. The label of “Saxophone Colossus” PrLp 7079 is an example of the second label variant. HOWEVER, this second edition became the standard first pressing as from around # 7037 or # 7038. I.e. an original pressing as from 7037/7038 will have the second label variant, but is still an original first pressing. I have some examples of second pressings prior to 7037/8. They have the second label, as per Saxophone Colossus. E.g. my 7004 has the latter label and is a second pressing. I sold my first label pressing because of a scratch. Also my 7004 cover is not kakubuchi and has a broad spine with title. But second labels exist in kakubuchi covers.
Analyse these two labels and note the differences (letter type, colour, adress). It is difficult to describe, but look carefully.
Rudolf – as always, you are a fountain of wonderful information. Out of curiosity, and based on your comments, I pulled a number of my copies from the 7000 series, and, sure enough: 7037 has the lighter color and early type, and, right after the change-over, 7039 has the darker color and later type. Also, address on bottom reverse of 7037 is 446 West 50th, address on bottom reverse of 7039 is 447 W. 50th. Based on this info, I have therefore pieced together that a number of my pre-7038 LPs (7013, 7036) were actually second pressings, as they had the darker color labels and 447 on the jacket. Obviously wonderful pressings still I am absolutely delighted to have. I just never noticed the difference before.
Rudolf: you the man! Thanks ever so much for your insight and information.
The covers then, I have a 7043 with 446 address, so the covers don’t all have 447 after 7038 at least. And are the kakubuchi variant covers random as well, so 1st pressing titles have them and some don’t? Or can you say that these covers should all be represented together with a 1st pressing disc up to a certain number?
The overview I have in my notes for Prestige is:
7000-7057 +(7060, 7061, 7063)
446 W. 50TH ST. label, DG, no spine text.
7064-7141 +(7058, 7059, 7062)
446 W. 50TH ST. label, DG.
7142-7258
Bergenfield, N.J. label, DG.
7259-7320
Bergenfield, N.J. label, no DG.
This obviously doesn’t include important minutia in determining first pressings like laminated vs. non-laminated covers for albums with the same address on the label or other basic characteristics, for example a Bergenfield label 7044 with no spine text, etc.
Aaron/Fredrik/Joe L: 446 vs 447. Nobody knows whether these numbers stand for a separate building, or a different entrance in the same building (office/warehouse). It is just guessing if a removal from 446 to 447 took place. I personally don’t think so.
My 7043 first edition cover “Informal Jazz” has the 446 adress. My 7044, a GEM album, has 447. GEM produced album covers appeared later. 7041 has 446 and is kakubuchi unlaminated.
My 7044 Bergenfield pressing has a broad spine with text and is a GEM production, without adress on the rear though.
Prestilogy is a difficult subject to study, rewarding and full of surprises.
Fredrik: did you win the Wallington?
P.S.
My 7045: 446, no kakubuchi, no GEM, laminated.
I had never noticed the GEM covers before – thanks once again Rudolf. Interestingly, a have few GEM covers, but a few have the thin spine with no writing. I reviewed a few pressings quickly this morning, and discovered the following:
7037 – lighter NYC label, 446 cover address, no writing on spine (first pressing);
7038 – darker NYC label, second cover, 446 cover address, wide spine with writing (second pressing? or third?);
7039 – darker NYC label, GEM cover, 447 cover address, but thin spine with no writing (second pressing? or third?);
7058 – darker NYC label, 447 cover address, thin spine (first pressing?)
7079 – darker label, GEM cover, 447 address, thicker spine (second pressing?)
All very interesting stuff.
Joe L: thanks yours, very interesting. Let’s compare notes.
My 7037 identical to yours;
7038. You are describing the second cover design by Reid Miles, I presume. My copy identical to yours. My first design copies (Tom Hannan) have thin spines. One is a G E M album, the other is not, and the adresses on both are 447.
I have seen (a year ago or more) on EBay what I consider to be the real first pressing of 7038: non laminated kakubuchi cover and the first label type. Since I have already three copies, I decided not to bid.
7039: my copy has a thin spine, no G E M and 446 adress.
Your 7058 is an interesting one with a thin spine. Mine has a broad spine with printing.
I have 7060 with a thin spine, no G E M. My 7061 thin spine with G E M. Both 447.
With 7070 starts a series of ten albums (except for my 7072 and 7077) with very broad spines allowing for the special print. All are G E M albums. I think they are originals, whereas earlier catalogue numbers with GEM are likely to be second versions. So my theory is that the contract with G E M started around 7070, and re-prints were also done by them.
Colour of the labels: whereas the first label type up to 7037/7038 was constant, a bright lemon yellow, the second label type had various shades of yellow, dark, egg etc. These shades were used indiscriminately, and don’t permit to draw conclusions.
Rudolf – yes, my 7038 is the Reid Miles cover (I personally love that cover and prefer it over the original).
Glad to read that my 7079 is likely a first pressing. It sounds dynamite, anyway.
Also pleased to read that the later ochre label colors were actually of varied shades of yellow. I was looking at my copy of 7013 – it has the second cover and a NYC DG label with the later, heavier type, so is a second (or third?) pressing. But the label color is clearly darker than the lemon, but also clearly lighter than the ochre. I thought I was imagining things!
Rudolf: I didn’t bid on the Wallington. But I know it’s a great album. I have some gems lined up first though to buy.
JazzRecordCenter on its latest sales items reports that E-bay now has a guide to original pressings – anyone know how to find it?
Joe L: 7013. I too have that second abstract cover version and the corresponding label. Sometimes second versions are nicer. I sold my first version copy of 7013 for good money, just because I did not like the framed pictures of the artists, which constitue the first edition cover.
The Reid Miles cover of 7038 is terrific indeed, but, for sentimental reasons I keep the Hannans. Collectors are strange animals!
Rudolf – correction – my 7058 does, in fact, have the wider spine with writing. I’m listening to it now, and it’s terrific.
joe L: O.K. took note of that. The album is fantastic and the sleeve picture and design make it one of my favourite Rollins albums.
Cheers.