Ups and Downs on eBay
Going backwards through my eBay watch list for a moment, starting with Bill Evans, Waltz for Debby, Riverside 399. This was an original blue label pressing that was in VG++ condition for the record and the “lower end” of VG+ for the cover. You can definitely see some cover damage in the pictures. The final price was $1,524. This is one of my favorite records, but still I am surprised to see how much the value has soared over the years, possibly more so than any other record not on the Blue Note label. At this stage, is there any Riverside record that sells for a comparable price? Perhaps just one of the other Bill Evans rarities, such as a first cover New Jazz Conceptions?
When I first started collecting, this boxed set was considered one of the top jazz collectibles: The Astaire Story on the Mercury label issued by Norman Granz. It is truly a beautiful, limited edition set, with original photos, original drawings by David Stone Martin, 4 records and a genuine Fred Astaire signature. Of course, we are now in a time when anyone under 30 probably never heard of Fred Astaire, and the jazz musicians who accompanied him on this record in 1952 are also mostly out of vogue even among aficionados like us. Guys like Flip Phillips and Charlie Shavers. The seller of this copy put a start price of $799 on the record, but there were no bids. If you look at Popsike, the highest price recorded for this record was $1,826, back in 2005. The prices have been going down since. As a point of reference, you may want to look at this post we did back in 2017: Is There a “50-Year Rule” for Jazz Vinyl? That post generated more than 40 comments and I imagine this one will generate some discussion as well.
I think I probably do agree with the 50-year rule. One can see it at work in all of the arts, not just music.
But with music surely audio quality also plays a part. While some music may simply go out of fashion (I think the Astaire set you mention might fall into that category), isn’t music that *sounds* old-fashioned — i.e. that shows the age and primitiveness of its recording — more likely to fall out of fashion?
The other thread, for instance, cites Dixieland and Tatum as two particular examples. Surely their decline in popularity is partly to do with the fact that they reflect the available recording technology of the day and sound ‘poor’?
Perhaps some distinction also needs to be made between music that collectors want to buy on the highest quality vinyl recordings available, and music that retains some degree of popularity but which people simply want in whatever format sounds ‘best’….?
the Astaire set looks absolutely gorgeous.
The Astaire set does indeed look very cool, but I don’t need albums of him singing. I’m more of a Gene Kelly guy anyway.
i think it won’t be too long before these crazy expensive blue notes dip a bit. if they don’t, it would be the very first display against the supposed 50 year rule.
Serendipitous post! A couple nights ago I watched the Bill Evans documentary on Amazon Prime (very good), and subsequently was browsing eBay to see how things were going with Bill. Looks like they’re going well!
The Astaire set reminds me of another desirable set, “The Jazz Scene,” which has several 78 records, lots of great photos, and – best of all? – is numbered and signed by Norman Grantz. Just took a peek for this one, and a couple actually sold this month in the $500 range. Somewhat surprising, I guess. Maybe not, who knows. I’ve got a nice copy I’d be happy to sell off, but shipping 78s just makes me too nervous.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/78-RPM-Norman-Granz-THE-JAZZ-SCENE-Charlie-Parker-Bud-Powell-etc-E-/264356238415?hash=item3d8cdc144f%3Ag%3AmKsAAOSwftlc%7Ea8t&nma=true&si=zTMrAcQfhDw4%252FDkDbjvHlEowVeY%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
The Beatles are now past 50 years and while boomer longevity will likely stretch that market for a few more years yet, the fortunes of Beatles collectibility will be a good test of the general applicability of the rule. However, modern jazz may be entirely an exception. Jazz has both scarcity and artistic merit going for it, and collectors are rarely nostalgia driven. The beautiful album art helps too. If the normal rules applied, prices would’ve dropped a bunch this past decade.
I wish that rule applied to blues 78’s from the 20’s and 30’s! I’d like to add a few more Charlie Patton, Skip James, King Solomon Hill, Tommy Johnson, and Son House records to the collection.
The Beatles continued popularity is a good Example of an Exception to the “50 year rule”. They are cross-generational. Some folks boast about being a “first generation” Beatle’s Fan. Continuing with the “Generational framework” I am probably a 3rd generation Jazz Fan (last 10 to 15 years). Pre-war Blues 78’s are also a good Example of an Exception to the “50 year rule”…and distinctive Blue-Note LP’s from the 50’s & 60’s are commanding 4 figure prices. Several threads are unraveling here i.e. The Beatles prodigious contributions to Popular music and the “Authenticity” of the early Blues. Vintage jazz albums carry interpretive & impressionistic music and arguably have the best Cover Art. Jazz LP’s speak to Art, Authenticity & Americana.
But the circles of collectible blues 78s and Beatles rarities are excessively small. interest in them might be vast, but a very small number of wealthy collectors are driving those markets. jazz vinyl has a much larger circles of interest, and verve, clef, norgan, and even dial are starting to see the effects of age.
Personally, I don’t think the popularity of modern jazz LPs is going to wane any time soon. I’m 26, and when I started collecting I felt I was definitely in a niche, but the amount of people interested in jazz (as well as vinyl in general) has grown like crazy. And among younger people than myself.
The decline of verve (pre-1960), norgran, and clef might seem like a model for other labels to decline as well, but in my opinion, the vinyl mastering and pressing quality of those originals is just not comparable overall to the stuff from Blue Note, Prestige, Contemporary, etc. It makes the music sound more dated, un-dynamic, and less vital than it is.
I don’t collect those labels as originals, because I see the audiophile and Japanese pressings as cheaper and better alternatives, as well as much less hassle to buy than to try to find in clean shape. The old jackets also dry out and split if you look at em the wrong way.
While we’re on the subject, I put on my Classic Records pressing of Duke Ellington/Johnny Hodges “Side By Side” and the audio is sharp and dynamic, vinyl silent. Sounds like it could have been recorded yesterday.
The ideas of the “50 year rule” seems to connect with my recent pondering of vinyl values. Watching Gripsweat on a daily basis in recent months, the rise of “modern soul” and “unknown rap” against the backdrop of Northern Soul (NS) is curious. It seems, me thinks, that NS’s peak is transitioning into peak prices being paid for modern soul, obscure funk, and obscure rap. Hmm… in this small sample, it appears the 50 year rule may be useful for predicting what is to come. Hold on to your disco records! They will soon top Blue Notes!
The Clefs, Norgrans, and early Verves contain fantastic music, and clean first pressings sound fantastic as well. The recording quality was consistently high for these sessions, with a warmth and glow that makes Lexington era Blue Notes sound harsh and thin. The David Stone Martin illustrated jackets from the mid 50’s were tasteful, entertaining, and fit the music perfectly. Johnny Hodges, Lester Young, Ben Webster, Sweets Edison, Tal Farlow, Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson, Billie Holiday, Anita O’Day, to name just a few, the list goes on and on…
The emphasis on Blue Note is unfortunate. Blue Note was/is a couple of drops in the bucket. Crowd mentality.
Clef – Norgran – Verve was the number one jazz record company in the 50s as Victor was the number one classical record company in 1900-1970.