Brick-and-Mortar Vs. Online
These days I can leave my home in The Berkshires and drive in almost any direction and, within an hour or a little more, I can cover three or four or even five record stores. Some of these stores have been around for a while, others seem to have popped up in the last few years to take advantage of the recent boon in vinyl and the growing interest in records from a younger audience. It definitely makes the hobby more fun and interesting, seeing what is happening in these stores and perusing the shelves for items of interest to me, not just as a collector but as the sole proprietor of the Jazz Collector site. I share this as a precursor to some thoughts I had yesterday while shopping in one of the relatively new strores not very far from home. I was in town doing chores and wanted to get the newly remastered Revolver. I could pay less online, but for items like this I like to buy local to support the stores and their owners. In this particular store, I was there the first day when the owner started the business a couple of years ago, and he very little in the way of jazz vinyl. But he has gradually increased the amount and quality of his inventory, and he has definitely upped his prices.
Like many stores, this store has special displays for the more collectible records. On the display shelf there was a copy of Thelonious Monk, Brilliant Corners, Riverside 226. First thing I checked was whether it was a blue label or the original white label. I have in my collection two copies with a blue label, but I’ve never had a white label and, I’m sure like it is for many of you, Brilliant Corners is a prime, foundational record for me. Monk, Newk, Ernie Henry, Pannonica, Ba-Lue Bolivar Ba-lues-are, not to mention Max Roach, Oscar Pettiford, Clark Terry and Paul Chambers.
The first thing I did was look at the label. White. Then I looked at the condition of the cover. Probably VG+. Then I looked at the price: $250. I understood the price. If you look on eBay, there have been many copies of white-label Brilliant Corners selling for $500 or more. But as soon as I saw the price, I didn’t even bother to look at the condition of the record. I dismissed the idea of buying it out of hand.
As I was walking the dog Moose the Mooche this morning, I was thinking about why. As most of you know, I’m not one to pay $250 for most records, but there was something else that was under the surface, and I think it was this: When I go into a store, I don’t expect to pay eBay prices. I look for bargains. To me, that’s the fun of going into a store – not just finding a record I want, but finding it at a fair price that I am willing to pay.
When I go into stores and the owner prices the records based on what he sees on eBay or Discogs, I get discouraged and disappointed. Thinking about yesterday, I would have paid $100 or maybe $150 for a white label Brilliant Corners and come home very happy. But shelling out $250 in cash (or credit) seemed like too much, even though the “retail value” might have been higher if the store owner had chosen to sell it on eBay. I don’t begrudge the store owner for trying to get the highest price, although my guess is he would make a very nice profit at $100 or $150.
What I was wondering as I walked Moose the Mooche this morning is whether this attitude I have about stores versus eBay – expecting lower prices in stores – is consistent among collectors out there, or is it something peculiar and specific to me. I realize having the quality collection that I have may give me a different perspective than someone who is newer to collecting. So I’m putting it out there: Brick-and-mortar stores versus online shopping? Do you have different expectations for each in terms of prices, experience, etc.?
I never begrudge (or maybe I do a little) anyone looking to get top dollar for their records. I used to buy primarily from Discogs and eBay, and all but abandoned those channels as the prices are very high. Layer on top the grading and shipping issues, plus taxes being added and its just not worth the effort.
For physical stores (or even buying from other collectors in their homes), it is rare to find treasures completely under-priced nowadays. Sites like this, discogs, popsike, etc. have eliminated information asymmetries. Some physical stores seem to have fully embraced online selling (CarolinaSoul being one of them) and others less so. Some have a mixed model where they use the information tools to set the price and discount it maybe 20%, but only sell in person. Some sellers understand all the pressing intricacies and other don’t. If I am still interested in the record, then I end up looking to negotiate another 10-20% off that, and if you have cash in hand, all the better.
What surprises me most is that for the wall of holy grails, many stores refuse to discount it, and would rather keep the record for 2 years and never budge. I guess they’d rather look at the record than turn inventory. As one of my favorite physical store owners likes to say–“I’m in the business of selling records, not keeping them.” I wish there were more stores like that. My worse experience is that one of our local stores displays the collectible records but refuses to sell them in person because that is for his eBay auction stock.
I can comment a little on this. I buy collections and attempt to essentially get free records. i tell people this when they ask what i will do with the records i buy from them. i will sell things i don’t want or already have, and i will keep the things i do want. the hope is that buying in bulk like this will allow me to recoup the money over the next few months or years, netting a profit of … records.
the problem is not that store owners can use ebay and discogs. the problem is that ANYONE can. most store owners understand condition and different pressings and such, but a person selling a relative’s collection doesn’t know how to distinguish their vg copy missing an ear from the NM copy with ear that was blessed by the pope and previously owned by barack obama that sold for an outlier high price. and if you attempt to explain that, you sound like you’re trying to rip them off.
what this all means is that to be successful, i find I have to to pay a little more and i have to rely on the real trophy pieces to get me to break even. the seller might think that beatles record is worth $100, and I can’t argue without seeming untrustworthy and potentilly skunking the deal. i know i’ll only get $15 out of it, but I really want that original copy of that henry grimes record for myself, and i know I can probably make up for the perceived beatle deficit if i can get top dollar for that super clean pharoah sanders on impulse. it’s that sort of thing. so at the end of the day, both myself and the shop owner have to price the pharoah at $60. it’s crazy high compared to the going rate just 5 years ago when I bought my own copy, but it’s not unrealistic these days. and prices drive ever higher.
additionally, the shop owner has to pay rent! i have a real job now, luckily.
So if you could sell it for $250 to someone, that’s just fine. But if a store asks the same price, it’s a travesty. Did you ask the owner if he would consider a lower price ? When you come back next time it might be gone or still there . At the store you get to inspect , listen and then decide. On line you get a crap shoot. By the way doesn’t the store “owner prices records based on what he sees on eBay or Discogs” do exactly what this website does ? Support your local record store !
yeah, I agree. Getting sweet deals in stores is a thing of the past, for the most part (unless you’re buddies with the owner/employees). For me, it’s being able to look at and potentially check out what I want to buy before plunking down, as well as providing support to shops & enjoying the social aspects where I can.
I’d expect to pay more in a brick and mortar. There’s more overhead. To be frank, as a former Main Street business owner, I find your thought absolutely chilling.
$250 for a clean first press of that Monk seems totally reasonable. Stores do have to pay the rent after all. What I hate is stores that would charge $500 for that Monk in nice shape or $250 for that Monk in VG- or G+ shape. I see that a lot in my locals.
There’s also the psychology of collectors wanting a deal for themselves but when it comes to selling one of their own records wanting the high or top range.
So I’m all for stores charging a fair price for rare records taking into consideration condition, absence of PayPal/eBay fees, etc.
Love this topic, and I’m chuckling as I recognize myself in some of your observations.
Al: “I realize having the quality collection that I have may give me a different perspective than someone who is newer to collecting.” Yep.
Mark: “There’s also the psychology of collectors wanting a deal for themselves but when it comes to selling one of their own records wanting the high or top range.” Check!
My buying days are largely behind me, but when I do hit the shops I *never* expect to find deals anymore, nor at the collector’s shows, which I now largely boycott due to the often mean-spirited competitiveness and ridiculous prices. Like many of you here, I was very lucky to build an impressive collection (IMHO) quite on the cheap in the 20 or so years before the resurgence. I was also fortunate to inherit a couple nice collections. As such, I’m very jaded (if that’s the right word) when it comes to pricing. This Monk, for instance. Of course it’s worth $250, but I’d see that price tag and scoff, “Pffft. Shit, I paid $3 for mine at an old guy’s house back in 2003.”
I get that this is a pretty ridiculous, entitled, and pretentious attitude, but it is what it is. I spent a lot of years chasing collections like our man GTF here. I worked hard. I put in the miles. I braved the dark and musty basements. I pissed my wife off. A lot. But my reward was that I got to pay 2 bucks for some amazing sides. I’m proud, know what I mean?If that makes me turn my nose up at an expensive record priced at half its book value, or refuse to sell a $500 record for $250 even though I paid $3 for mine, I guess I just can’t help it!
All record store owners are well aware of ebay, and they price accordingly. Why would they sell for less than they could get on ebay? It’s a business just like any other.
Paul…of course..I just wish more stores would price taking into consideration condition and lack of PayPal/eBay fees which is fairly significant. And I would also hope they factor in the “hassle” of selling online…potential complaints, packing the record and going to a post office, and even worse the possible chance of fraud.
I am pissed when stores are expensive, but I still enjoy looking. I’ve got a nice collection already and in building my collection I’ve had disappointments, I’ve overpaid, and I’ve gotten deals but I still love to look through a collection. So I like to think of a record store as the owners collection. Maybe that owner just happens to be delusional with their prices, that’s kinda fun too.
Mark is right, anyone can price from discogs, but that’s not closing the deal. Packing shipping and possible problems should be a deal breaker for the casual seller. Our local record fair is full of dealers pricing on the high side of discogs and it’s made the fair a bummer.
When I sold records at the fair, I priced low discogs or lower and I sold out. Lots of young people check their phones and when they see you came to sell they buy.
Something I’ve wondered about: Ive bought records from the 80’s on, but I got into jazz later. I was fascinated by the blue notes and I’ve regretted not seeking out blue notes in the 90’s. But, before the internet, I would’ve had no idea how to determine the pressings. How did blue note collectors learn about the runout and matrix marks and their meaning?
Additionally, I really wish a Japanese collector could tell their story of coming to the states to search for blue notes. Navigating the language barrier, the size of the us, recognizing pressings, those first collectors must’ve been extremely dedicated.
Like Al, and Japhy ( ha! Al Jaffe!) and so many others who visit this site, I am fortunate to be a life long album collector, and built a collection when the buying was cheap and record albums carried an intrinsic value just above discarded aluminum cans. When I was actively collecting and paying two to five dollars an album, I developed internal sensibilities concerning the value or worth of an album based on the low pricing of those times. Since 2012, we have seen prices skyrocket, the “hobby” infused with new interest, and opportunists enter the market with the promise of big profit in mind. It is ironic that we get so excited watching our Blue Note blue chips increase in value, and at the same time turn up our noses at paying prices that conflict with our own internal sensibilities, but I suppose this is just a reflection of human nature. We live in a “buy low sell high” culture, so we shouldn’t be surprised to find record sellers, both on line and brick and mortar shops pricing at current market values, but it sure has taken the fun out of the hunt.
I think most of the relevant comments have been made, but I think the reason that many stores do not display rare records anymore is that their customers will be angry and disappointed if they price them at “market” value. The owner needs to get good prices on rare one of a kind items. My guess is that that store won’t see another copy of a white label Brilliant Corners for many years. Remember, a store owner must put cornflakes on the table and, if it’s an independent shop, probably makes less than a lot of it’s customers.
First, the short answer: I never enjoy paying retail for anything. It’s just the way I’m wired. As a result, I own 1,000+ records – many of which I paid $3 for – that most serious collectors would toss into the garbage. My approach is the same, irrespective of physical or virtual marketplace.
I have had a strikingly similar experience to yours on a couple of occasions – including today. A local record store I frequent had a new addition to their wall display today: an original stereo Waltz For Debby. I asked to take a look, as I couldn’t read the price. Clipped lower right corner (cutout), vinyl had been cleaned well, had a few scuffs on one side and a faint scratch across the entirety of the other side. It might “tic”, or not. Labels showed spindle wear. Vinyl had some “collapsed bubble” spots on both sides. Undoubtedly first stereo press. The store was asking $250. Do I think it was fairly priced? Probably. Certainly not too far off market. Would I pay? Not in a million years.
Instead, I bought a $3 Buddy Tate on Felsted, and a $3 John Graas on Decca. They’ll go into the ultrasonic cleaner, get new inner and outer sleeves; and I’ll listen through the inevitable crackle.
Have I been fortunate to take advantage of pricing errors before while digging the bins? Absolutely. Will I forgo 100 $3 records to buy one for $300? Not at this stage of my collecting journey.
I often pay a higher price in my local stores than I would on ebay or discogs. For me it is worth a bit extra to have a ongoing relation with the owners, (well, some of them..) First of all there is no risk involved since you always can return stuff easily if there are any issues. You sometimes also get the chance to see stuff before it goes out in the store or online (the price is certainly not lower but the possibility to have a first-hand look should not be underestimated). It used to be easier to do bargains since knowledge in jazz was low among the dealers with their main interest in King Crimson/Pretty Things/Stones etc. but you had to go there all the time since the good (underpriced) stuff never was there for a long time. Now when I have a not very high but at least steady income I prefer a good selection before the chance of a bargain. The time when I could drop by the record stores and check the new arrivals every day is gone and as long as the seller don´t aim for a premium price based on a uncritical Popsike search I am happy with that.
i love my neighbourhood record stores. Browsing them is part of my life. I have 19(!) recors stores between my house and my work adress. Hit each one once a month I think. I understand what everyone is saying about pricing. BUT. The worst thing with buying expensive records is grading. Thats much easier in a store, you can see it , you can play it, you can probably return it. If the store prices slightly below discogs, I am still happy. They have to make a business. They dont drive sports cars. Ive they have a nice attitude / nice store, I try and support them
Totally agree with you Al
I’ll pay decent money for a record in a store but I’m willing to pay what I think it’s worth to me.
The retail store buyer I assume buys it for as small amount as he can negotiate. That price for me has nothing to do with discogs bench marks.
When I see discogs prices in stores I simply don’t purchase. Where’s the rush !? Where’s the buzz?!
Oh those pre internet days ! Gosh we had fun
Is this aforementioned $250 white label ‘Brilliant Corners” the Fantasy pressing? As you all might guess, I have one from who knows where but am a long time jazz fan so was happy to find it whenever it was( back in the early 90’s??) However, now, with a garage partially filled with record crates (!) and the occasional responder to my Craigslist and Marketplace ads stopping in, I hope to have time soon to map out these stores in the Berkshires. As far as local stores in the area, I picked up a first press (near mint, to me) of ‘Way out West’ for $80 when a local store that had changed hands several within a 10 -15 year or so period finally shut their doors (Jim’s Records->Pauls->Sound Cat->Juke) As an aside, I bought a copy of ‘White Man in Hammersmith Palais”back in the late 70s and later got Robyn Hitchcock to sign a copy of ‘Element of Light” while he was perusing the bootlegs at rear of the store at Jim’s.
Did a little research and answered my own question. I obviously need to do a little more studying!!!!
Assuming all three are in good shape, couldn’t Al have bought that $250 Brilliant Corners and recouped his cost selling the two blue label copies? Seems like if you place rigid rules on what a record should cost you miss out on opportunities like this.
i only buy in stores cause i like to go thru physical records, and find something i didn’t expect. On the web you can find anything you want, there is no pleasure for me.. and because nice albums are rare to find in Amsterdam (there are 6-7 good shops for jazz to find) i also can controle my limited budget. I have a hole in my hand the size of Kentucky and would spent my rent and food if i would go on ebay.
Here in amsterdam i have the idea that for the last 2-3 years the shops went towards the top ‘discogs prices’, they
where usually a bit under it. The shops also have the same prices, so there is no real competition. (There was one who was always just a bit cheaper, but he got his well deserved pension last september).
It is not so much the top prices the shops nowadays ask that makes me cranky, it is more the idea about their mark up from their acquisition price. They normally give you as seller 25-30 % of the price they will fetch for it in there store.
But in the end it’s very simple; If somebody buys the record, the price wasn’t too high
One of the collector’s ongoing dilemmas… Paying a fair price vs paying a bargain price. I have paid both “fair” and “bargain” prices for LPs. We love bargains and coast from the adrenaline rush for a long time after, then enjoy reliving the score when we play the LP. $250 for a clean white label Brilliant Corners ? I would not have hesitated- then I would have cleaned it, and listed it online for FMV, then netted a nice profit that I would have used to purchase additional LP. Everyone wins….the local store, the eventual new owner, and you. I have done this many times in the past. I will go into a shop and look at the wall display(s) of valuable LPs. I have a good intuitive feel for what is fair and what is overpriced. I consult online databases when in doubt. I have purchased from the “wall” as part of larger purchases. My motivation is either I want the LP or it is underpriced (cf: Brilliant Corners offered at $250). Invariably the owner offers me a discount because I am purchasing a valuable LP along with other items. I go home and enjoy the high cost purchase, or sell it immediately to offset the total cost of my purchase (paying -$0- net is a great feeling !). I have done this at shows- buying underpriced LPs from one vendor and selling or trading to another vendor at the same show so I end up with additional cash to spend, or I received LPs I wanted in exchange. Prices are Prices, but in the current environment prices do not exist in a vacuum. It is what you do with the price that matters. Looked at another way- if YOU sell and try for at least FMV how can you begrudge someone else for trying to do the same thing ?
Al touched on the issue of record stores popping up everywhere due to the collecting trend driving increased demand for LPs. What does that mean ? More demand means more competition to acquire LPs either individually or in bulk. Competition drives up prices in general, so it should not surprise anyone that stores are trying to get as much as they can. A store is a business (not withstanding stores that just have to break even because the owner has other sources of income), and a business has to make money to survive.
About 15yrs ago I had a nice conversation with the owner of a prominent NYC record store. We discussed pricing and demand trends. He pointed out that he puts valuable LPs in the store for about 7 days, then if not sold, it is posted on line. Why ? A valuable LP pays the bills. A valuable LP that is on display will be handled, and examined by multiple people. Every time the LP is touched there is the potential for damage, and the longer the LP is on display the more it is subjected to incremental deterioration- literally causing the value to decline. OTOH- selling online means the seller receives FMV, and has money in hand within 7 days, with minimal effort. If you question someone’s asking price, you also have to consider their motivation for selling.