Dolphy Vinyl, Autograph Updates
Here are a few odds and ends we’ve been watching on eBay, starting with some Dolphy: Eric Dolphy at the Five Spot Volume One, New Jazz 8260. This was an original purple label, deep groove pressing. The record and cover were both listed in V++ condition, although the picture of the back cover would be more VG+ in my eyes. It’s always tempting when the front cover is so nice to try to ignore other blemishes. In my eyes, VG++ is reserved for covers that would otherwise be M- but have a single minor flaw, such as the original owner writing the date on the back, which was the case with all of the records I purchased in the Bruce M. West collection in Baltimore. A cover such as this, with blemishes and tape stains doesn’t quite say VG++ to these eyes, but I’m sure the buyer will be pleased, otherwise, he wouldn’t have bid $612.50.
The same seller also had Eric Dolphy, Out There, New Jazz 8252. This was also an original purple label deep groove, also listed in VG++ condition for the record and the cover. This one sold for $431.66. Finally, there was Eric Dolphy, Far Cry, New Jazz 8270. This was another deep groove purple label, also listed in VG++ condition for the record and the cover, although the picture of the cover tells a different story. Regardless, this one sold for $294.
I would be remiss not to follow up on the autographed records we were watching. I read Don-Lucky’s comments and the others as well and it is my personal belief that these autographs are legitimate. Perhaps it is just the romantic in me, but I have a hard time seeing someone going to the trouble of faking an autograph when, in reality, having such an autograph on a record doesn’t necessarily increase the value. Plus, having a Sonny autograph on one of my albums, these just look very legitimate to these untrained eyes. Having said that, I was busy this weekend and forgot about the auctions. Now that I see the final prices, I have small regrets about not being more aware because I probably would have bid and possibly would have won, at least on the Tenor Madness one. Here are the final tallies:
Sonny Rollins, Tenor Madness, Prestige 7047, autographed?, $293
Sonny Rollins, Blue Note 1542, autographed?, $721
John Coltrane, Blue Train, Blue Note 1577, autographed?, $1,222
Miles Davis, Volume Two, Blue Note 1502, autographed?, $660
i bid on the dolphys, and also their “out to lunch” auction which closed the next day. i have been saving for awhile to try to get one of the big ticket items on my want list, of which there are ten or so that i am wild about and really want to own, damn the expense. but these are getting mildly stratospheric. i wasn’t even in the top ten by the time the auctions closed. 🙁
So glad I got my Dolphy’s a long time ago before the prices went through the roof
yeah, after emailing with the seller of the autographed LPs I’m pretty sure they’re legitimate.
Those Dolphy records are expensive!
I won that Out To Lunch auction!
I actually have a question about Out to Lunch Liberty Press, so this is apt timing. Are there two Liberty presses, one with a RVG stamp and one without? Or was there only one Liberty press with the RVG stamp?
Scott Lowery – yes there are (at least) two Liberty pressings of Out To Lunch, one with the RVG stamp and one without.
one with a Van Gelder stamp and one without (and a related United Artists blue-white).
Hello Everyone!
My first post at Jazzcollector although I have been reading for some time as it takes me back to those fun record hunting days (I had finally quit active collecting about 10 years ago when everything that I still wanted started to become unaffordable). I guess I got overwhelmed by nostalgia with this one.
I passed on a NM copy of the Five Spot LP for $70 or $90 at the Jack Beabopa Brown’s little loft shop in Hackensack back in spring of 2001. To my amazement, I recently found his business card still tucked in my wallet. I bought dozens upon dozens of nice LPs from him that year but this was the one that felt “overpriced” at the time and there were so many other attractive options to spend money on there.
The Five Spot and the Out There would be two of those I would still want to have today.
Welcome ILYA. Thanks for the story. Well maybe you should have forked up the money for the Dolphy – or maybe not.
I’ve noticed that there are so many types of collectors “Out there” (!) and everyone has to find their own way of collecting. I mean there are variables that define us as collectors and I guess the first one is: do you have at this moment money to spend on records? Next up is IF you have the money to spend do you want to buy expensive records or not? I have a friend who is well off and he would never give more than $50 on a record – no matter what. That is his limit. Also are you a first pressing guy or not – very important? The other variable is condition – which grade is acceptable for you? VG, VG+, EX or only NM records. That defines you as a collector and the higher the grade the more expensive records and if only originals are acceptable you will probably not end up with many records.
Sorry for writing lengthy but these are some of the things on my mind when thinking/reflecting about collecting…
I went to that store and actually checked out the Dolphys in person during the auction. They were very nice and I know the shop owners were pleasantly surprised on how much they fetched. 2-3 of the New Jazz records did however have a couple of the infamous pressing bubbles which have usually not been a problem for my turntable to track but at those prices, someone might balk. It looked like the store had bought a higher end collection and these were some of the gems.
yeah, in 2001 these Dolphys weren’t all that expensive so $90 for a Five Spot Vol. 1 would’ve seemed pricey at the time. We had no idea things would get so stratospheric. Hell, in 2001 I would have bought all the Michael Garricks for $100-$200 a pop (at most) and been duly satisfied.
Shaft, thank you for the response. Good points, so I will expand a bit to give a better perspective, especially because I will likely continue to be present on this forum.
I grew up in the USSR listening to jazz from my grandfather’s and father’s collection (whatever they could have acquired then given availability (not) of anything from the West). Started collecting myself when entered college. Acquired my first Blue Note in a trade when I was 17 (we were already in college at this age back then, or… in the army), a nice VG++ (Goldmine scale, so no Ex) NY copy of Leo Parker (still have it). Fell in love with the label (sound, quality, design), like many here. My other acquisition at the time was a very clean copy of Billy Bauer on Norgran (still have it). I got the appeal of early pressings right away and became an “early pressing” collector. Moved to the USA in mid 90s for graduate school. Went crazy at first because then one could find a lot of cheap (few bucks) VG to VG+ records from 1950s. Got rid of those over time in favor of the at least VG++ but often NM records (my highest grade if I grade). So, you can now understand what I am: higher grade, no reissues. Own probably 250+ of first/early pressing BNs (never could remember the exact number) including some unplayed 10-inchers. Never really looked even at Liberty reissues (who would have thought that those would become $100+ records), not to mention anything that came later.
Now, limits are interesting. I totally understand the concept but they are a dangerous thing if one is truly passionate about collecting. Back in 1996, I had a $20 limit (quickly raised from $10). When stretched up a little at times, it allowed me to acquire quite a bit of good LPs, including many from the 4100 series and, on a good day, even some 4000 series BNs. Had I only had a higher limit back then! Say, $40. For that, I could have gotten a ton of RARER 4100s at a record show in MD, for example. But it was too much from a grad student from Russia.
I do have much more resources available now than 20 year ago. Or, I could allocate them if I wanted to. But it would be depressing to bid $500 on a couple of records a month nowadays only to see them consistently go for multiples of that to someone else. Now I live on the West Coast (not in Bay Area). It is much drier on high quality jazz than the NE corridor area was (at least in the mid-late 90s). So, I don’t do any active searching, ebay or not. Random finds do happen. Last year I bought a few LPs at a local shop, of note being NM copies of Giant Steps and Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section. They did not fit your friend’s $50 limit (or even a couple of multiples of that) but they cost me immeasurably less than any copy in similar condition has brought on ebay probably over the entire past decade.
Hope everyone finds this entertaining!
Clifford, exactly!
To give a feel of trade-offs one faced at Jack’s shop that year, one could have:
– bought the $90 copy of “At the Five Spot”, or
– 4 (four!!!) Prestige/New Jazz/Bluesville test pressings (while labels, in stock copy covers). All unplayed but most with minor storage issues that Jack obtained from someone connected to Prestige (it was IN THE AREA!). Not the top titles, perhaps, but who says that Bill Jennings, or Lem Winchester, or Don Ellis, or Lighnin’ Hopkins are not deserving records???
No wonder that Dolphy seemed overpriced… Jack was probably more expensive that ebay of the time on top stuff. There was “Candy” on the wall for $650, and one would probably go for much less on ebay then. Jack’s top clientele were Japanese dealers, and if they did not buy, he, oddly enough, had difficulty moving things sometimes. Once those guys were through (and they always had a shot before you!), you still had a bunch of amazing options. In this particular case, Jack said people wanted stock copies and he could not get rid of those damn test pressings! I still have a dozen or so of them from him. Or, he had a bunch of 10-inchers w/o covers sitting in a dusty box under the bins. He said that nobody wanted them because it would be so hard to find covers. They were not Benny Goodmans! They were things like Max Roach BLP 5010 in VG++!! “I want them out of here. Ten bucks and good luck finding a cover”, said Jack. He was a great character…
One could also chat with Larry Cohn in person, who had only shortly before that started educating people about the Plastylite’s “ear”, Liberty “first pressings” of pre-Liberty titles, etc… He was going through Jack’s stock looking only at BNs, not the records, but their dead wax, mumbling something like: “I know this matrix, it’s common”. And things like that. Almost every visit was an experience.
Enough for now. Thanks for your patience, everyone!
You’re talking about Stereo Jack’s I presume?
Stereo Jack’s in Cambridge, MA? No.
My rant was about a place called Rare Records on Main St. in Hackensack, NJ. NY dealer Jack Brown had a small loft shop inside the main store, which was only open on Saturday afternoons.
Rare Records was a very good store by itself, with lots of unplayed store stock of 1960s LPs still available in late 1990s. Owner’s wife told me once that he had never liked Blue Note and thus there was no back stock. She meant “unfortunately”, of course, and it is easy to understand why.
But Jack’s loft was simply amazing…
ILYA really cool stories that I enjoyed much reading. Everyone has their own story. I will not indulge myself here and now so much but when I started to buy my own records in the 80’s a record was just a record and I did not buy so much jazz just the odd Wes Montgomery/Ramsey Lewis LP.
When I got into the collecting game in around 2005 it was quite late and I did not buy many expensive records, maybe top $50 when I found the right one in NM condition. Mostly locally bought in Stockholm. Today I buy both high and low – because I love the music. Condition is alway important to me. I have a problem with noise and imperfections on LPs even from the 50s. It takes away the joy I’m afraid. And with those demands well you either put in more money or start to buy only reissues or MusicMatters. So I put in a bit more money when the opportunity arrives mostly locally but I also get me some playing copy on MMs. Those and EMI 2012 Disk Union issues are very very nice indeed. I got a nice Saxophone Colossus locally for $1000 and a Cool Struttin’ for just a little bit more.
Jack Brown was a ubiquitous presence at record shows and the like in the day. I remember many a time showing up very early at a record show to try to catch the new dealers before they set up their tables, only to have been beaten to the punch by Jack.
Jack Brown used to take me along on those early runs to record shows. I would help carry in and set up Red Carraro’s tables to get in early. I really miss both of them.
Woody, you’ve seen the tributes to Red here at Jazz Collector, yes?
https://jazzcollector.com/features/adventures-in-jazz-collecting-red-carraro-part-3/
Al, yes, I used to love hanging out with Red at the shows at the end of the day. Red was a natural born story teller and a stone cold solid good people to boot. I met Red in the late 90’s, after the Japanese Dealers had picked him clean of old stock. Red told me that in the 60’s the demand for mono pressings tanked as everyone only bought stereo recordings that some stores just moved their mono back stock off the floor. He was working as a salesman in the city and at the end of the day he would stop at these stores to fill his trunk and back seat with these unwanted mono pressings for a dollar a pop. I don’t remember asking Red what he sold them for but at that time it couldn’t been much as he was always trying to be as fair as possible.
Jack Brown was cut from the same cloth…. They both spent more time talking about their passion for a particular session than what they could sell it for.
To AL:
Now I get it. Jack’s needed to outrun those Japanese dealers to shows that he sold to later. This is why he ended up outrunning you.
Joke or not, it’s true in any collecting field – records, stamps, anything… When you come for the opening, all the good stuff is already picked up by dealers. A flow of goods from non-specialist to specialist dealers, so to speak. A specialist in stamps of Burundi (pick any country), will identify and buy better items from the “general” dealers before the show even opens, only to re-offer at higher prices elsewhere (or right at the same show).
Same was true with Jack, I presume, except there was always more competition for high end jazz than Burundi stamps, so he had to outrun other interested specialists (like Al) and dealers.
I never even tried to compete with dealers because it is always a loosing game anyway.
Once I asked Jack about his collection. He said that he did not collect because otherwise he would not be able to run that business. He would often have a record on the turntable when he was at his store though. He clearly loved jazz.
Thank you Clifford and Aaron for replying. By chance has anyone heard both copies, and if so is the non-RVG is really that inferior, andwhat the main distinctions are?
Scott – I don’t know about Out to Lunch but I’ve compared a few RVG and non-RVG pressings and the difference between the 2 weren’t that great.
However, Clifford mentioned above that there is also a UA pressing. UA did a mono run primarily for the Japanese market and even compared to late Liberty mono pressings we found them mastered with a flatter equalization. Both the high and low end sounded compressed.
Right or wrong, I used to tell my fellow collectors that the “P” may heavily influence the price a Blue Note will sell for but a “RVG” or “Van Gelder” denotes the quality of it’s mastering and pressing.
In the end I want to hear the session the same way Rudy Van Gelder intended.
Wish I knew about Rare Records back in the day. I spent too much money at the Hackensack Book Store, also on Main Street. This was a rambling old warehouse full of books and magazines, both new and used. Had I known about Rare Records, I would have been in there myself….
When I lived in a bigger city, I used to frequent a semi-monthly record show held at a local hotel. I got tired of the crowds and inability to find anything good other than random purchases. One morning I decided to arrive when dealers were admitted, and I paid the “dealer” entrance fee. I became one of those buying as dealers set up, then moving towards the exit when the doors opened to the general public. In many cases I was able to buy from one dealer, then sell or trade to another dealer at a profit….at the same show.
My current home town has but one show per year. However, I still get there when the dealers set up, and I still do very well before the general public arrives.