The Original Original (NOT!!!)
I was just about to write a post about this item: Miles Davis, The Original Quintet (First Recording), Prestige 7254, but I see that Rudolf beat me to it in one of his comments. The reality, of course, is that this is the first recording of the “new Miles Davis Quintet” as issued and described on Prestige 7014, the original pressing of these wonderful album. Most jazz collectors would know this, but apparently not. The seller — do I really need to say who it is (yes it is bobdjukik) — does a fantastic job of obfuscation without actually lying. He notes that the material was recorded in 1955 and the album — this particular album — was released in 1961. When I was an editor, I used to tell my reporters and writers to be careful: It is possible to have the facts correct, but to get the story wrong. Here, clearly, we have the story wrong. What would you pay for this record in a store, even if you didn’t have the original? Would you pay $15, $20, maybe $30 to fill in the gaps in your yellow Prestige collection? This one is now $127.50 with two days to go. I don’t even want to put the picture of this record on the site, lest someone mistakenly think it is actually a collectible of real value. You do wonder if the hyperbole and razzle-dazzle in this seller’s listings affect real bidders and real collectors. It certainly helps to jack up prices on records such as these, but does it scare bidders off on other records? Case in point:
The seller also has a copy of Miles Davis, Steamin’, Prestige 7200. This looks like a legitimate first pressing with the yellow label and New Jersey address and it is listed in M- condition for both the record and the cover. It is currently at about $100. It should, and probably will, sell for more, but . . . I recently had an email exchange with a reader looking for this particular record. He wasn’t sure if the first pressing was New York or New Jersey. I assured him it was New Jersey. Perhaps other readers will look at this listing and question the veracity of what actually constitutes an “original” pressing because the seller is obviously out for the best price, truth be damned.
I agree you should take the seller’s name out of the article! Leave the link so you have point to story. This leaves your readers with knowledge of truth to original / not original presses. Better yet, and in a nutshell, BERGENFIELD ADDRESSES START AT 7144 – all lower numbered presses are 50TH ST. N.Y. ADDRESSES! I saw that guy sell an “ORIGINAL AMERICAN” 4 digit YES- CLOSE TO THE EDGE a few years back for $160.00 +/-! Didn’t really lie but he preys on the notion that buyers might not recognize right off hand, and a no brainer in my book, that “ORIGINAL” copies would be UK! You can even score a UK ORIG of that title FAR FAR less than what some idiot paid for the Original American copy! Poor sap! BUYUER BEWARE!
Here’s another scenario this week in terms of shadiness. This time it would be in the bidding department (from what I can see!)
Way top dollar for these records – search seller’s completed auctions: http://cgi.ebay.com/Cannonball-Adderley-LP-Somethin-Else-BLUE-NOTE-1595-NY-/250794100134?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item3a647e45a6
I’m also wondering if this is the first pressing of this Art Blakey – Live at Saint-Germain. I’ve had it with the black label before, but also have a yellow label pressing and can’t determine which one is the OG. The seller (the same who’s selling the Miles Davis lp) says this is the very first french pressing. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160551495988&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en#ht_5383wt_907
The Blakey should have a DG, no? I’ve been looking for it on and off for years and I’ve seen it come up with a DG.
Prestige 7014 “Miles” was originally released with a green cover and “Prestige LP 7014” in script on the upper right, then the text changed to “Prestige Hi-Fi 7014” in print. Finally came the blue cover (retaining the “Prestige Hi-Fi 7014” in the print text) before they reissued it, like the copy bobdjukik is selling, with the pink cover and new catalog number and title.
@zarabeth: What’s the problem with the “Somethin’ else”?
Lander: this one now for sale is definitely not the first pressing. The first pressing labels were blackish, but of an other design. I had them, but traded them in for fresh pressings in the early sixties, which have the same labels as our friend is now proposing. I have the Messengers of 1959 (at Champs Elysees), RCA 430.054 in an original first pressing, which is yellow. Barney Wilen, 430.053, also has an original 1st pressing yellow label.
Zarabeth/Katharsis: I asked myself the same question.
Lander : Rudolf is right, this is a second. The Charles Cros Prize mention is not on the very first (of course). And label design is different.
I just came across another Djukic item, which is now under “completed listings”. It is Kenny Dorham on Savoy, sold for $ 271. Now, here our friend was even more flagrant. It is not a K.D. session, but a Savoy re-issue of a Signal album by Cecil Payne! A disgusting pack of lies.
In regards to that copy of ‘Something Else’, here is a link I have posted in the past from someone who is really obsessed with this particular LP and has a very extensive collection of the various pressings for reference…
http://www.cannonball-adderley.com/1595.htm
(Or there’s always Freds great Blue Note reference if you have a copy already)
On a side note, thanks for posting this one Al, as fate would have it, I have been listening to a lot of Prestige Miles lately myself… It never occured to me that Steamin’ & Workin’ were both NJ pressings. (Probably because I only have the original Relaxin’ & Cooking NY pressings in my collection at the moment.)
Just for reference, can anyone confirm the address that should be on the back of the LP covers on an original first pressing of Workin'(7166) & Steamin'(7200) with the Miles Davis Quintet: Here’s what I am assuming it would be:
Prestige Records, Inc, 203 South Washington Ave, Bergenfield, NJ.
Rudolf ! We all know that Mr Bob
D’s album are all “impossibly rare”, “absolute first pressing”,”come from ou personal collection” and… “good luck fiding another one” !!! 🙂
Hi Everyone, I am new to this site, and new to collecting jazz vinyl. I find the info here to be very informative. Miles Davis is perhaps my favorite artist. I am always looking to add original pressings to my MD collection. I just bought a ‘lot’ of jazz records for really cheap and in the lot was a copy of Cookin’ with the NYC address, original? Also, a copy of Diggin’ with the NJ address, original? I, also, got a copy of Somethin’ Else, DG with west 63rd address, and rvg, again original anyone? Thanks so much. All these copies were is fantastic shape.
don-lucky: your assumption is correct. NY adresses until 7141 only.
Will go to your ref. for 1595.
Thanks Rudolf, it’s interesting to see how many variations, formats and countries Somethin’ Else on BN1595 has been issued since it’s original release.
For the “Somethin’ else” – I still don’t get it?
The advertised record has DG, RVG and Ears and the pictures show the original first adress on the labels without the copyright-R? So what’s what I am missing?
…I think “zarabeth47” was referring to the bid itself on that copy of Somethin’ Else. There has always been speculation on sellers who seem to attract higher than average prices for their LP’s. A common tactic is having others bid-up the item to ensure the item sells at the highest possible price. If they manage to outbid themselves in the process, they can always send a second chance offer ! It’s happened to me on more than one occasion. The sad part is, they don’t even wait a reasonable length of time to make that second chance offer. I have had sellers send it within hours after auction close believe it or not !
@don-lucky: Thank you. shadiness – bidding department! Now I understand.
That could be true but on the other hand, the record appeared to be in beautiful condition. With all the high prices of other Blue Notes and the status of being a classi in mind – the price could be true?!
LOU DONALDSON~LOU TAKES OFF~ORIG ’58 BLUE NOTE MONO LP Item number: 140528779587
Questions from other members :
Q: Hi bobdjukic, Your advertising this as an “original” pressing and it is not. THe record is missing the deep groove in the record label and the ear mark or “P” in the trail-off area of the vinyl. thanks Mar-28-11
A: Hi Bealebop: Like most record collectors, in determining the vintage of the pressing, we go by the label and label ALONE (this is disclosed in our policy pages). The peripheral elements of the pressing such as deep grooves, ear stamps and alike are of negligible or zero value for this seller, since there is a myriad of possible combinations, permutations and pressing plant variations that would take even the most compulsive collector decades, if not a lifetime, to figure out. If you feel that my description does not pass the test of YOUR particular criteria, may I suggest that you refrain from bidding altogether. Kind regards Bob Djukic
That’s funny. Whenever a record has all these “peripheral element” he doesn’t get tired of announcing them!
In other words,folks: There is no one standard that exists that defines”original”,not even a standard that we might collectively ASPIRE to(notwithstanding Fred Cohens recent Blue Note book and exhaustive efforts ). If you THINK it’s an “original”-or at least can be PERSUADED that it is-then that’s what it IS. So-“deep grooves, ear stamps and alike are of negligible or zero value for this seller” even as the descriptions THEMSELVES that accompany an album will trumpet those same “peripheral elements” in order to underscore a records collectability. It’s only when knowledgable collectors challenge the listings accuracy-or lack of same-that the details become merely “peripheral”. Or to put it another way,”A fool and his money are soon parted”.
Lastly,as Aaron mentions,the “original original” cover color is green,NOT blue. I knew that,although my post above suggests otherwise. Here’s what the buyer may have THOUGHT they were paying for:http://cgi.ebay.com/Miles-Davis-MILES-lp-PRESTIGE-7014-N-Y-John-Coltrane-56-/260758346110?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item3cb668997e
Even THAT isn’t a first pressing as it has the “Prestige Hi-Fi” text on the top right instead of the “Prestige LP” in script on a true first pressing. One thing about the reissue of this, Prestige 7254, is that it retains the 7014 etching in the deadwax.
Yikes!Sounds like the time may be right for a “Prestige” book along the lines of Fred’s Blue Note efforts. Or we can all jump on the djukic bandwagon and say,”who gives a….”
Bob D is so dishonest, it becomes funny. Anyway, we must admit that the world is full of “more money y than brain” collectors.
Final prices with seller “bobdjukic” are high. Buyers are happy, ie 14389 ( at the moment ) positives and Positive Feedback (last 12 months): 100% .
What can you say…
what I repeat everyday:
there’s only one severe and incurable illness:
IGNORANCE
there’s no treatment.
we thought him fool,silly,we laughed at his DETAILS
thanks Michel to have called this BD with his true name:
dishonest
IN REFERENCE TO MY INITIAL LINK TO THE CANNONBALL ADDERLEY LINK: I was just amazed how much such a common record went for. The most I have ever got for a real clean original press is $275. They’re not real hard to find in decent condition! Not like a nigerian Fela SORROW BLOOD & TEARS!
IN REFERENCE TO THE “SHADINESS”: I wanted others to look at the seller’s other auction’s bid histories. Lotta neubie (0) bidders and people who don’t normally buy records bidding on that stuff! Funny illegal action goin’ on.
IN REFERENCE TO BLOB DJ U KICK: I have been selling/buying lps for 11+ years now on ebay. I used to marvel at the prices he gets for records. He was my saviour in terms of thinking I too could get $115 for a VG+ original NEIL YOUNG HARVEST! His subterfuge was not as in your face as it is today. You gotta admit there’s always an lp he has that you want in each one of his auctions! I was interested in a FRANK ZAAPA – WE’RE ONLY IT FOR THE MONEY this time. I inquired about the UNCENSORED lines he described. CLASSIC OBFUSCATION! Here is our communication copy and pasted from my ebay messages(LOL):
ME: Hello,
What two lines are Uncensored please?
Thanks,
THEBLOB: HI:
Correct!
Bear in mind that various overseas and later domestic pressings may have other lines that are MORE uncensored than on the first domestic version (the one we have here) This is a regular, first “uncensored” US pressing, with those two lines uncensored.
Best regards
Bob Djukic
ME (reply): Hello,
Which two lines/songs are uncensored please?
Thanks,
THE BLOB’S REPLY: HI:
Please check
http://lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/vinylvscds/money.html
Thanks and best regards
Bob Djukic
He didn’t even know the information that he placed in his description! (Does he just make it up?) His first reply doesn’t even address my question! LOL! Mindboggling!
If anyone out there really is paying attention to the communication I just copied here – check this out: He mentions that “later domestic pressings may have other lines that are MORE uncensored than on the first domestic version (the one we have here)” – Frank took this back to VERVE umpteenth times and they kept censoring it! SO WHY WOULD THER BE MORE UNCENSORED LINES THAN AN ORIGINAL PRESS! His subterfuge knows no boundaries!
He is definitely not right in the honesty department. John to Paul: How Do You Sleep?
People who pay $100’s for some inexpensive later pressings records sometimes show their “finds” to other people.
Some people are knowledgeable.
How come out of so many buyers nobody gave him a negative feedback ?
Maybe for the same reason people dont like to acknowledge that they’ve sent money to down-on-their-luck Nigerian royalty. It hurts!
(I’m sure the Prince will be contacting me any day now…)
$760 for the Miles Davis Steamin!!! Is this a bad joke, I have two copies of this and the most I paid was about $60 for one and thats in the last 3-4 years..Ultimately the joke is on the buyer (caveat emptor).If people are stupid enough to pay that kind of $$ for this record it just proves how uninfomed they are, way too much money and no sense. Hell give me $150 for my two copies and I will give the $600 odd to charity. Global recession does not seem to have extended to record buying…
I have followed the antics of Mr. B for some time. He adapts his descriptions constantly based on what he is offering.
I can remember him offering for sale a so called “original pressing of Byrds first LP, that he knew and said was not a first pressing.
He had for sale a columbia 360 label mono printed in white (which was preceded by Columbia mono with guaranteed hi fidelity printed in black at the bottom of label) He described after saying his was a first pressing that the guaranteed high fidelity was so scarce and came up so infrequently he was treating the 2d version as, in effect, the first issue.
I have raised with seller on a number of ocassion his shortcuts around the facts but nothing seems to disuade the seller from his antics
way too much money and no sense – Good one Matt. But there is bid rigging happening – ghost bids whatever. He has employees, NO DOUBT. This creates a further need to have it.
Slowy Discogs is gaining ground and it’s educating people with the easy cross referencing. it’s still not perfect but you don’t see these people on Discogs (to my knowledge) and a woman in the USA – I see doing the same thing now (maybe his partner? same layout of auctions everything) .. You can post a price as high as you want on Discogs.. you won’t get it though unless truly justified in most cases…sure scam will exist on all platforms..but this guy wrote the ebay book on low level psychological scamming .