Back To Blue Note
Where were we? Oh, yes, eBay. Tina Brooks, True Blue, Blue Note 4041. This was an original West 63rd Street pressing from the Jazz Record Center, part of a nice auction that closed last week. Based on the description I would count this as M- for both the record and the cover. The final price was $2,275. Before eBay was around to show us what the market really looks like, I used to think that True Blue was the ultimate Blue Note collectible, and for a while that did seem to be the case. But it has since been surpassed in desirability — and price — but at least a couple of other records, to wit: Hank Mobley, Blue Note 1568. This was an original pressing with the New York 23 label on side two, which makes it uber-original in the eyes of many collectors. Perhaps of equal excitement, this was a promo copy. The record was listed in M- condition and the cover was listed as EX+. The final price was $7,970, which may be a record for any jazz record, depending upon how you view these things. Quite incredible, don’t you agree.
Here are a few others from the Jazz Record Center auction:
Clifford Brown Memorial Album, Blue Note 1526. This was an original Lexington Avenue pressing. My grading would put this at M- for both the record and the cover, based on the description, because JRC doesn’t use our standard grading language. This one sold for $700.
“Baby Face” Willette, Face to Face, Blue Note 4068. This was a West 63rd Street pressing without the deep groove. It was probably in M- condition for the record and VG++ for the cover, depending upon how you feel about the previous owner writing her name in ink on the back — in three different places. Huh? Anyway, this record sold for $560, which is not making a lot of sense to me. Perhaps someone out there in Jazz Collector world has a reasonable explanation.
Herbie Hancock, Takin’ Off, Blue Note 4109. This was an original New York USA pressing in M- condition for the record and the cover. It had the added benefit of Hancock’s autograph, if you consider that to be a benefit. It sold for $710.
Grant Green, Grant’s First Stand, Blue Note 4064. This was an original West 63rd Street pressing that looked to be in M- condition for the record and the cover. The final price was $710.
Al, your comment regarding the signature on the Herbie Hancock lp raised a long-term question on the topic: What does the community do with records purported to contain original signatures? I’ve read many comments in which these marks are seen as abominations on the lp. I’ve read others suggesting them to be a curious addition, ideally out of sight, given their potential connection to the artist. Am I wrong to infer that the jazz lp community tends to disregard them as a blight on the lp itself? Or, perhaps so suspect in the claim of originality that they should be ignored? Are there pure jazz signature collectors? Any thoughts?
I thought the Clifford Brown Blue Note had to have the bottom text area in blue (instead of white) to be an original?
No way in hell that Mobley is M- with those scratches in the ninth photo, even if they don’t sound. EX+ for the cover also seems a bit generous. Would guess the NY23 combined with the promo stamp is what drove the price up …
Daryl, personally I’d be delighted to own a signed jazz record though I admit I wouldn’t pay much of a premium for it. Then again I don’t mind writing on covers or labels much at all long as it’s not on the front cover and not too prominent (i.e. straight through the liner notes or something). Gives it an extra bit of history, knowing who bought and owned it when it first came out. There’s collectors to whom that sorta thing really despresses the value though. I had a Lee Morgan 1541 for sale a while back that had a name on the labels and back cover and some guy argued price with me saying that it looked atrocious, while aside from the writing it was an easy NM. To each his own I guess.
I agree, cellery. It’s tiresome to keep seeing old records graded “on a curve.” A record from 1958 should be held the same criteria as one from 1978/1998/2018. Why can’t people follow a standard?
Those scratches mentioned for the 1568 look quite nasty to me. Probably they would make some sound. Also the promo stamp does not look like the regular BN stamp. The font and color is off.
True Blue is one of my favorite Blue Note classic sessions, even if it has been eclipsed somewhat in price and desirability by some of the 1500-series titles. Everything came together on that Tina Brooks album, you know?
Shaft, I was thinking the same thing regarding the stamp. Has anyone seen another vintage Blue Note with that style promo stamp?
I ding records pretty bad that have writing on them, it’s usually a deal breaker for me. I don’t even like writing on the record label.
scott, that is interesting. i have noticed myself moving closer to your direction, but i will still tolerate a pretty beat cover to get nice minty vinyl.
as for baby face, richard cook’s blue note book notes that his records command lots of clout among the dj crowd. i’ve not heard any of them personally, though i bet they groove pretty well.
Grading on a curve really sucks. How many times have we all read “looks great considering it’s 60 years old” or something along those lines.
The artist’s legit autograph on the jacket is a huge plus to me and I don’t understand why in the world it would be otherwise.
Oscar Peterson lived next to a good friend of mine and one day I asked him to sign a copy of Night Train. Invited me in so he could get his gold ink pen and signed “To Sean! Sincere Regards Oscar Peterson”. Don’t put much of a premium on autographed records but that one is special to me.
I like the idea of autographs that are contemporaneous to the album. If Herbie signed that copy of Takin’ Off in 1962 I’d be totally into it. If he signed that same copy of Takin’ Off in 2005 I’d be less enthused. Same goes for owner labels and writing on jackets; there’s some romanticism in the history of an object, less so when that object has been altered in more modern times.
as it should be, sean. that’s a seriously cool story.
Yeah I think my logic is, especially on a classic album, that the cover itself is like its own historic work of art. So even if it’s banged up and has a seam tear it’s still a work of art. If the Mona Lisa had a torn edge and was dirty it’s still the Mona Lisa, but if someone defaced it and wrote “Daryl” or something like that in marker on the its taking more away from the artwork. I guess that’s how I feel if someone writes their name on the cover of a original pressing of Cool Struttin.
I’m the devil’s advocate on this one, negitive comments regarding the J.R.C. ? The ultimate authority on Blue Note , QUESTIONING the man who wrote the book ! Where do we go from here ?
Negative about JRC? No I don’t Think so but actually they goofed up regarding the Clifford Brown’s 1526 cover which is a 2nd cover with White (not blue) at the bottom. It actually says so in Fred’s book so……
In the late 90’s here in NYC a mint cover didn’t mean just no writing or marks, it also meant no promo stamps. At that time the high-end market was determined by what Japanese dealers would pay. Most dealers would let the Japanese buyers have first pick because they offered top dollar for mint records and what they passed on would be priced accordingly. I used to love finding the occasional Blue Note with an audition only stamped mono cover as they were in the $20 to $25 range. By 2000 the bubble of original collections was waning and prices started to climb rapidly.
I think JRC/Fred is great. That said, I don’t understanding his grading at all. I bought records from him that said “maybe played once,” but that had feelable scratches when it arrived. How does a record have feelable scratches if it was only played once? I asked Fred about this and his response was essentially “it didn’t skip.” Much to his credit, and he deserves much, he took the record back no questions asked. My question is did records in the 50s and 60s have feelable marks as new? Do I just misunderstand the JRC grading system? Fred is knowledgeable and generous, so my comment should not be construed as a put-down or complaint. Rather, JRC sells fantastic titles, some of which I’d like to purchase, I just don’t know how to convert from a Goldmine-type grading system to the JRC system. Again, not a put down of Fred in any way.
As far as the prices go, I think the when well-know sellers, like JRC, have big auctions, like this one, prices reach the stratosphere, and with price points being surpassed dramatically for many/most of the records for sale. I only sell on eBay about once a year and if I sold the same records I couldn’t get the same prices. Still, many desirable lps in the same auction attracts lots of attention and much higher prices.
the only truly negative things i have ever heard about fred and the JRC amount to mostly unsubstantiated gossip, and i meanwhile have many positive personal experiences with fred.
it does miff me a bit that he has his secret room of fancy records where you can’t just look for yourself, but i also understand it. i just want IN IN IN IN.
Another thought: Maybe one or two years ago I asked on this site what people thought of my selling my Newk’s Time with mixed 63rd labels (one side w/ inc the other without) in strong vg++/vg++ condition. The feedback I got at that time was that $200 was just too much. The JRC auction had the same record, which closed at $633. My questions now are: a) is $633 for that record too much?, and b) am I lucky that I didn’t sell it?
As a frequent visitor to the JRC, I don’t really see what separates Mr. Cohen from sellers such as Carolina Soul. Almost every visit to the store results in high hopes shattered by generic titles in the ‘stacks’ , Jimmy Smith and Art Blakey 3rd pressings, and the occasional original collectible Blue Note in VG. Not to mention some of the poorest customer service on the planet…and that’s saying a lot considering a typical NYC record store’s usual staff. Anything he has that is truly collectible is going for auction, and his name is going to draw huge prices. Like someone said earlier- all 3 lps i have won from his auctions were described as ‘never been played’ : all had issues ranging from distortion to pops and clicks. When I sold him an original Red Mitchell 10in from my collection, I can safely say as the original owner that it had been played and marked- heavily. But of course when he listed it- it ‘had perhaps been played once’. His book (which he conviniently condradicts when he feels like he can make a profit ie- 1568) has bought him such goodwill and over embelished praise that most collectors would probably not even admit the records they buy from him DO NOT have their original ‘luster’ so as not to contradict The Man. Any record collector that frequents the NYC area would probably concede that per visit, Academy Music, A-1 and Human Head records all have more affordable and collectible jazz than JRC on any given day. And, much, much nicer staff.
No, David J, new LPs fresh out of the jacket in the 1950s, ’60s, or any era, do not come with surface marks of any kind. If a new LP came with any defect, you took it back for a replacement copy or refund. As for artist autographs on LPs, that’s up to the individual buyer. I have asked a few artists to autograph one of their LPs. This includes Pepper Adams, Bud Shank, Howard Rumsey, Duke Ellington, Ellis Larkins, and Dardinelle. All signings are on the back cover. I also have a copy of the “Grand Canyon Suite” autographed by Ferde Groffe, a Babs Gonsalez autograph on an otherwise blank LP front cover, and Ross Russell’s autograph on a Dial LP set. As for a previous owner’s handwriting or rubber stamp on a back cover, I don’t care. I have several 10-inch LPs with a rubber stamp from Marshall Stearns, founder of the Institute for Jazz Studies. I also have a couple of autographs on CDs. I have never paid extra for an autographed LP or 78 (usually done in white ink on the record label).
I’ve been collecting for several years now, and through these years I’ve visited the Jazz Record Center many times. I consider myself a meticulous, knowledgeable collector on a budget, and for whatever reason the owner of the store has said less and less to me as time as gone by. In fact, the last time I was there, I asked to look at a record behind the counter and through the process of entering, looking at the record, and leaving, the owner didn’t say a single word to me. I was the only person in the store. I can’t seem to understand that lack of engagement or friendliness. Add to that what I’ve been hearing about the “perhaps played once” thing when several times I’ve heard of these record being no better than VG+ according to Goldmine standards and I won’t be returning to the store. I’ve gotten good deals there too but I don’t get a good vibe from that place anymore.
I will also say that I’m only here at this blog because a friend told me about this post. I find the combination of covering jazz record collecting while emphasizing and almost excusively covering the most expensive auctions as biased promotion of the market, which is why I don’t visit this site anymore. I’ve wanted to say all this for a while but someone else speaking up about the Jazz Record Center’s grading prompted it. I think this site would be more interesting if it covered good deals on eBay more often. Surely the sensationalism of record high prices drives up traffic for the site but I get the impression that the vast majority of collectors visiting and reading this site are providing commentary from the sidelines while the wealthy play in the game. I refuse to opine over records I can’t afford, which is why I don’t visit this site anymore. I hope the site owner can take this as constructive criticism and not as an attack.
In my experience and opinion, a nicely executed autograph neither helps nor hurts the value of a record. The specialness of the autograph is cancelled out by the fact that the jacket has been altered from its original state. The same goes for promo stamps on jackets or record labels. As for promo white labels, they may actually be less coveted than a comparable record with a regular first label, with a few notable exceptions, such as Miles’ Kind of Blue.
Fred’s grading of records and jackets is fine with me, as he usually describes the flaws accurately, and one can ascribe a grade based on that. As for jackets, grading is notoriously subjective for anything other than near-mint examples.
I have a Limited Edition BN 1568 AcousTech Mastering 45 RPM Copy from Steve Hoffman & Kevin Gray.
At these prices for BN 1568 , I am currently happy with this….
Finally got lucky yesterday with a nice little find that hardly happens up here in Toronto.
Found a copy of The Return of Art Pepper 1956 – Jazz West JWLP-10. Mono – Deep Groove at a local Thrift Shop.
The LP is only a VG but plays nice. Cover is nice also but completely split.
Great Music on this one.
For those who want to get as close as possible to a recorded performance, there are certain prior stages before the record is pressed. There is the recording tape that contains all takes, which can be played. Next is the master tape containing only the takes planned for release. These are cut from the master tape. This also can be played on a tape machine. These takes are then cut by lathe on to a one-sided lacquer disc (incorrectly called an “acetate”), which can also be played with an LP stylus. Lacquers are cut, not pressed. This disc is plated and becomes a “negative” of the lacquer. This is called the “father.” There are two “fathers,” each representing one side of an LP. The “father” can also be played but requires a special bifurcated stylus that straddles the raised groove.
The two “fathers” are then plated to produce two “mothers” which can be played using a standard LP stylus. These are then used to produce two “stampers” from which each side of the record is pressed. One set of “fathers,” up to four sets of “Mothers” (although two are preferred for quality purposes), and six sets of “stampers” from each set of “mothers” are made and constitute the first pressing. NO vinyl pressing can come as close to the actual recorded performance as the preceding stages. I have examples of all stages except a “father” and a “stamper.” I prefer black pressings because color pressings are translucent and can show every scratch or blemish.
Al – I’m curious to know your opinion of True Blue.
Flat edge? Is it possible?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/JOHN-COLTRANE-LEE-MORGAN-BLUE-TRAIN-1st-PRESS-BLUE-NOTE-1577-FLAT-EDGE-JAZZ-LP/352288769533?hash=item52060c05fd:g:wz4AAOSw6Bhaj4c2
@GST more likely a copy / paste issue from a previous auction.
Surprise surprise, the 1568 promo’s back up on eBay due to a ‘transaction failure’, this time owing up to ticks on side 2 due to those scratches …
That True Blue was indeed described as ‘there is a hairline and two handling marks on Side 2, Track 1 that produce a few unobtrusive soft tics,’ which makes me feel that it is VG++ rather than NM.